Bully.com

Hey Liel- “It may be time, then, to wave the notion of lashon hara goodbye…” Seriously? Because we live in an age of moral depravity aided and abetted by social media, we throw decency, civilty and appropriate human to human behavior out the window? You’ve got to be kidding. Cyberbullying may in fact be the latest and greatest vehicle for lashon hara but that doesn’t mean we don’t do our damnest to teach our kids it’s wrong. What a great springboard Evan Cohen and his family have provided for us that still give a flip about raising decent menschen!

“Kid B, arguably, could have easily logged on to her computer, fired up her webcam, and produced a video twice as scathing, twice as funny, and twice as popular.” The key word here is “arguably.” In reality, kids who are bullied are often those without the social skills, quick tongues, and confidence to avoid being branded a favorite target. It’s like saying to a clumsy, meek, physically weak child who’s been beaten up, “Hey, tomorrow, go beat that guy up twice as hard! Problem solved.” Is Liel’s point that we should never defend our kids, or try to keep them out of harm’s way, but just let things work themselves out Lord of the Flies-style? Nice.

I didn’t need you to specify who does and who doesn’t have kids in this debate, Marjorie. It comes through loud and clear.

It would be interesting to learn if Kid B made a request to YouTube to have the video removed – and if they complied or not.

It would be most unfortunate if in this particular community there isn’t a friend, teacher or other parent who might teach Kid A a thing or two about ethics – because clearly she isn’t going to learn them from her father.

Mr. Cohen,

I understand that the school system’s legal right to punish a student for behavior outside of school was the crux of the matter here. I do have two questions for you. 1) How then does a school system suspend a student for being arrested for smoking marijuana or other less damaging behaviors than your daughter’s. and

2) Did you in fact reprimand your daughter in any way for her behavior?

Thank you.

Thanks for all the comments.

It’s worth noting that this is still a gray area, legally, in a lot of states. (NY State just passed a school anti-bullying law a couple of weeks ago, but it doesn’t mention online behavior. MOST state statutes don’t.)

I notice that Mr. Cohen has not responded to Beth’s second question in any way. The issue under discussion in this column isn’t the legal question of whether the school had the right to punish his daughter. The issue is the moral question of how parents should discharge their responsibilities to raise their kids as decent human beings in an environment where giving vent to one’s most vicious inclinations is so easy to do.

The Cohen family may be entirely correct on the legal front, but that says nothing about how they discharged their moral responsibilities. Mr. Cohen, surely you do not believe that your daughter acted appropriately in posting the video in the first place. If you don’t, the world wants to know what you did to bring home that moral lesson to your daughter. Or, if you do, how you defend it (without reference to the school’s actions).

Dear Patrick,

First of all, if you are the same Patrick Di Justo who wrote a magnificent article a few years back about the science of Battlestar Galactica, I’m a fan. As for your argument, I indeed make the assumption that all men were created with an inherent potential for evil, which makes the species that much more interesting. And I, like you, am suspicious of the argument that technology changes everything. In this case, however, it does: even if one does not believe that we all possess the capacity to do harm, one might still argue that, given access to mass media, one could at least learn how to retaliate to slurs made via the very same media. In other words, Kid B needn’t have been a bully or a jerk to respond, but could have uploaded a compelling response to YouTube. As both videos, most likely, could’ve have been hyperlinked and similarly tagged, anyone stumbling across one video would also see the other, and could judge which of the young women in question is the more appealing. I think this is a reasonable scenario, and a very encouraging one — the bullied fighting back with grace and a webcam.

And Mr. Cohen, I fully agree with your arguments and logic. Unlike other commenters, I think that your relationship with your daughter is, and should remain, utterly private. The important issue is the legal one, and your case, I think, sets an important boundary line.

@Mr. Cohen: My question does not assume whether or not the act in question met the legal definition of “cyberbullying.” It merely assumes that the video was intended to be (and was) hurtful to the girl it targeted. You have never denied that. The NYT piece may well be generating uncalled-for histrionics, but your posts have not contained anything that would cause me to rethink my response to this situation. Nor have you said a single word to cause anyone to think that you are not willfully blind to the moral issue here.

@Liel: Your position seems to imply that if a kid is not capable of uploading a “compelling” response, well, then, sucks to be her. Only the strong survive. Isn’t that position at odds with the Jewishness of this magazine? Doesn’t our tradition prize helping the weak? You genuinely think the moral issue is not as important as the legal one?

I admire the chutzpah it takes to claim for Mr. Cohen to claim that he responded to Beth’s second question, when any reader here can see that he has not. Perhaps he means that he answered it someplace else (or muttered something under his breath, or something else that ties idiom into a pretzel)? Or that ignoring it completely was his answer? Pro tip: “That’s none of your business” is a response; not answering is not.

Sorry, Marjorie, cannot help it:
An Uzi is a 9 mm. Or did you think it was a .45 or .50? Then you need a Desert Eagle, to stay with Israel.
Really sorry, again; but with mistakes like that, you undermine your whole argument.
(Of course, a regular Uzi packs two or three times the amount of rounds a “9 mil” has; but I could and would take out the Uzi-toting kid A with that 9 mil. before the kid has lifted her Uzi.)

I am editor-in-chief of VNCcommunicationcounsel. Most of our work is defense-related, hence my first comment. We make it our business to disseminate information that could be of importance to decision makers, or just of interest to any aware citizen of the world community.

I just did a quick refresher on lashon hara and I’m afraid that keeping that commandment would shut down most news and information channels, and more: Criticizing any wrong anywhere on our earth is most often lashon hara. Even the factual comment above about calibers is lashon hara in the strict interpretation.

So I really wonder: Do we really want to stay uninformed of evil and wrongdoing? Do we send our children to school to learn only the nice and cuddly stuff and keep silent about bad neighbours – like e.g. H’zbullah or Fatah? Do we, really? Do we, actually? V’ahavta l’rei’echa kamocha, Love your neighbor as yourself, is one of the underpinnings of the mitzvah against lashon hara – and it may be the essence of Tanach. Good precept. But can we live up to it? Do we? Should we? I digress deep and wide and I shudder at the thought I think. But I must.

Back to the matter at hand, I agree with Evan Cohen and Liel Leibovitz. In this information age, every thing will be discussed all over our earth, a lot of it drivel and viciousness. But parents’ relationship with their children is private, no business of this thread, nor of a school, nor of a government. Asking or telling them about their behavior towards them is, we all should be aware of that, lashon hara as well. And we are adults, no kids.

I shudder, but I must ask: Maybe the mitzvoth are all too hard to live by in real life, where we need to act?
I don’t know. But let us try to keep the commandment, even while we know we all will and must fail, time and again. Keeping silent too often is the greater harm.

Marjorie, Leil, Evan and all other commenters: Thank you all for the very worthwhile and thoughtful time you gave me.

Ack! Me and my cluelessness about firearms! I thought a 9mm was a handgun! Pathetic. (Not as bad as when I said Frau Blucher was a character in Blazing Saddles instead of Young Frankenstein, but close.) Gah.

You and Liel should totally start a blog to shame me.

There you go again. You don’t like the answer, so you pretend I haven’t answered it. Moreover, you read three lines in the New York Times about a complex case, and now you think you know everything about what happened. You don’t.

Let’s do this, one more time. I don’t agree that there was cyberbullying in this instance, and so I don’t agree with the premise of your question. This is, as we say in the law, a “lack of foundation.” “When did you stop beating your wife?” would be analogous. My daughter took a video of some kids talking about another girl. She put it on YouTube, and asked the girl if she (the other girl) wanted it taken down. She said “no, leave it up for now.” I’m sorry, that’s not cyberbullying, no matter why kind of hysteria you would like to drum up.

This was a minor matter, and yes, the discussions between parents and child are private. Certainly none of the school’s business, which was the point of the case. And also none of your business.

I’d like to think you can leave it at that, but, of course, you can’t. You — and you know who you are — NEED, yes, NEED to find some moral outrage in all of this, when you should be directing your outrage at the school district that overreacted and BROKE THE LAW regarding the First Amendment and due process.

I win a major victory for civil rights (and I’m not even a civil rights lawyer), and this is the thanks I get?

I highly doubt Elise “graduated from law school,” let alone a good one, or even has had any legal training. She can’t even spell.

And, if she were a lawyer, she would have read the Court’s decision, written by Judge Wilson, a Reagan appointee and generally considered to be a judicial conservative. As can be gleaned by the excellent summary of cases therein, school districts have been losing cases like this all over the country, notwithstanding the abundance of right-wing, authoritarian personalities like Elise. Get over it, Elise, you hack. No “substantial interference.” Sorry. If it were up to you, one “mean” text message would land a student in irons, rights revoked, sitting at home, suspended, or, as you apparently want, in jail. You sicken me.

And I know you are not a lawyer, because you would know that libel and slander cases are only meritorious if they contain a provably false assertion of fact, which this video did not. Calling someone “spoiled” is not libel or slander, Elise. If there’s any suit to be brought, it’s against the law school who let an ignorant fool like you out to prey upon an unsuspecting public. Maybe you can get your money back.

Let’s hear it, Elise. Name your law school and the graduating year, so we can verify your claim.

That’s funny. You can’t even competently write a couple of sentences. It’s “loser,” Elise, not “looser.”

Go ahead, Elise. What’s your law school, idiot? Right. You didn’t go to one. You’re also a liar. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Name it. And the graduating year. Go ahead. I’ll wait right here.

And I’ve already won the argument.

Sad? That’s funny. When stupid people run out of things to say, or when they’ve been called out as a liar, as you have just been, they resort to meaningless phrases like “you’re sad.” Is that be best you can do?

Now, let’s get back to you, Elise. What is the name of the law school you attended? Or, let’s talk about why you feel you need to lie about going to law school. Does it make you feel important?

While not an attorney, I understand that the LAW was upheld here, but not the ethical obligations of society. I also deal with civil rights issues on a daily basis, though, unlike Elise, I am not an attorney.

In my experience, creating a “hostile work environment” goes against the law, and certainly against justice. Cyberbullying creates that hostile work environment, just as surely as doing it in person. This is an environment that the victim is required to attend every day, and in which God knows how many classmates have seen the video (though it’s obvious SHE did – harm done right there, to high school kids with significant peer group insecurity and dependence) and how many Facebook or Twitter sharings that video received…

In my humble opinion, we need to revisit creating a hostile environment for that child, not call each other names. That profits no one, Mr. Cohen. Nor do letters, diplomas and degrees determine intelligence. Never have, never will. We’re talking about the right of a student to attend and learn at school without the gossipy nasty trashtalk virally spread throughout a peer group she’s stuck with.

Though I appreciate that the school possibly shouldn’t have intervened with their own punishment, I do believe that they should have made you award of the situation that your daughter was creating a hostile environment for the victim, and that you should have responded by having her make an apology video and “share” it in all the ways she “shared” the original video.

I like keeping schools out of our private lives. The victim’s parents should have sued you and your daughter directly, for defamation of character and harassment. Maybe they didn’t know they could, I don’t know. I also like though, that the school at least made you aware, which is in their jurisdiction.

Marianna-
I graduated from Boston University. I am also a child advocate particularly for special needs children who happen to be targeted by bullies of all stripes constantly.

True, while it was a video of OTHER’s comments, that does not absolve her from placing the video in public view, nor of “sharing” online. It’s ethics, people.

Your rights stop where I begin. Nobody’s shooting the messenger, whose messenger was she? Whose messenger is Mr. Cohen?

The real message here is don’t do things online that you don’t want seen. And apparently, Mr. Cohen is preventing his daughter and himself from learning that lesson.

@Jane

Thanks for your reply, sincerely though, I am still confused. I can’t think that you intend to find a moral that says “don’t do things online that you don’t want seen” because that suggests that it’s the publicity which determines the rightness or wrongness of actions.

Dear Susan- I can see that you are a good and heartfelt person. However, it is not appropriate for a parent to allow their child to bully others and it should not be allowed, tolerated nor accepted under the guise of Constitutional rights. Nor should that parent ever be given a free pass.It is only when society holds parents up to the ridicule that they deserve for their lack of parental leadership will society be able to rid itself of all forms of bullying. The bullied child is entitled to be part of the community as well, and when shortshrift is given to their pain and trauma there is no community to speak of worth belonging to. I wish you peace, you are truly a kind person.

Elise -

I agree it is not okay for a parent to allow their child to bully others. I heartily disagree that ridicule of the parents is the answer. It’s just another form of bullying.

We need to model proper, respectful, constructive behavior to both parents and children, to demonstrate there is a healthier, more healing way to go about things.

What I suggest we do is follow our laws regarding rebuking those who have done wrong. Try, respectfuly and with kindness, and in private if possible, to show the person the error of their ways. If we do not believe they will listen to us, try to find someone they respect who will have more success. If we know of no such person, and have done all we can, we move on.

Unfortunately, we can’t control the behaviour of others. But we can control our own behaviour.

“B’makom she ein anshim, hishtadeil l’hiot ish,” which can be translated as, “In a place where nobody is acting human, strive to act human.”

More histrionics. Civil rights lawyers are often insulted by people who are upset they would stand up for the Constitution. Big deal.

SoSad, is that the best you can do? Parrot other people’s insults? Apparently.

As a recovering attorney and the parent of an adolescent girl (but! I haven’t seen the video, going by snippets; haven’t read the court case, either – I tend to avoid the NYT, Zionist that I am) I think: some folks get all cranked by the idea that bullying has taken place and immediately assume they know who the bad guy is. And get moral. Sheesh.

As a parent I know this: you want to stay out of it and only get between the kids (yours, yes, but even more so yours & not_yours) when they squabble when the teeter is totally tottered.

Note: What is it that the State has done, if not bullying in this case? Get cranked about that. Recognize the inordinate power the state (in the form of the School District) can wield, and how tempting it is for School Administrators to wield that power beyond their scope, and you might come at the entire matter less judgmentally. As the courts, in the end, have done. There must be a reason why the Cohens “won” this case.

Because when the State lumbers in mashing trees to catch rabbits, and it is your own child that is treated as a rodent, I can’t imagine a single parent who wouldn’t (a) uphold the rights of their own child in front of every court in the land when it was patently clear that the bullying came from the powerful arm of the state (where the upfront fees were not an issue, mind you), and (b) privately admonish the hell out of junior for acting in a way that doesn’t speak well of the family(“another fine mess” would be the least of it).

One thing that keeps coming to mind, the idea that bullies, and I’m still speaking of the behavior of the School District as bully in this vein, bullies are generally the ones that are the most afraid. What is it the Schools are so afraid of? That would be a worthwhile thread to pursue. I’d like to know.

Ranting and name-calling, here and in links posted (U235, what a cesspool your blog is) get a life. Don’t need that here, there, anywhere.

There is a simple solution to “cyberbullying”. Turn the computer, cell phone or whatever, OFF. Unlike regular bullying, where someone confronts you physically or taunts you, no one is forcing the child to read the emails or text messages. And no one can force a girl to watch Youtube.

To the parents whose children are being bullied:
1. The school has no control over what students do after school and on weekends, beyond trying to educate students about appropriate behavior. I think that’s why the court upheld the father’s complaint.

2. Take the phone or computer privilege away (from both the bully and the victim), until they become mature enough to use it properly.

IMO, the problem today is that parents are unwilling to take responsibility for teaching values to their kids. They want the schools and the rest of society to do their job. It’s like trying to ban pornography or movies or TV with things you don’t want your kid to see. TURN IT OFF. Don’t allow your kid to watch or listen. But don’t deprive the broadcasters of their First Amendment rights, or prevent me from watching adult programs if I want to.

I don’t think “Turn It Off” is a realistic expectation. That’s like depriving your children of all sugar or all non-educational toys — unless you live in a super-homogeneous community, your kid eventually leaves your tiny cocoon and your edicts won’t work out in the wider world. PLUS you’ve deprived your kid of decision-making skills. That’s why we need to be explicit about our (Jewish and ethical!) values, AND teach media and technological literacy.

Meanwhile, New York City’s Department of Education just proposed a change to the city schools’ Discipline Code: now cyberbullying (“intimidating and bullying behavior through electronic communication”) will be subject to a disciplinary beat-down. According to our indispensable local resource Inside Schools, the new version of the code will also emphasize counseling, peer mediation, and parent outreach instead of relying so much on suspensions. Which I think sounds good — does anyone learn anything from suspension except “don’t get caught”? (Or in some people’s case: TIME TO SUE.) I can see counseling and perhaps parent outreach having more impact than mediation…though of course, parent outreach won’t work if the parents are also bullies or refuse to acknowledge their child’s wrongdoing. On my personal blog I included some links to current research showing that mediation is misguided when it comes to bullying: Mediation assumes that both parties have a valid point of view, but bullying is closer to child abuse: it’s just WRONG. Zero Tolerance policies aren’t a good approach either; if the punishment for bullying is invariably huge, kids may hesitate to report bullying for fear of retaliation, and kids who bully won’t learn strategies to change their behavior — they’ll just get booted. (And if their daddies sue, not even that.)

Marianna –

Notwithstanding what you WANT, the school CAN’T get involved in off-campus matters without violating constitutional rights.

Off-campus, really? Everything? Really? How about if two kids, in the middle of the summer, call each other names. Maybe one repeats the insult on Facebook that day. The first day of school, two months later, one walks into the counselor’s office and says “Johnny hurt my feelings. Johnny is a cyberbully.” You want Johnny suspended, right? Is that your solution?

Too bad. No power. Case after case is in accord. The kids are going to have to work it out themselves. The school is not a “super parent.”

Mr. Cohen? I had no revenge fantasy…I merely said,”They should have sued you and your daughter…” That was the course open to them. They chose otherwise. Not my call. But if I’d received the response from you that they did, I would have. I would certainly file a harassment complaint.

Having kids who have disabilities makes us much more aware of bullying situations, since our kids are more vulnerable.

In one situation, the bully would stand on the sidewalk (which is public, as you know) and threaten my kids if they rode their trikes down to his end of the block. He brandished a knife on one occasion, and shot my then 5 year old with an air pellet gun. I reported it. His parents made up excuses and alibis and nothing could be done. These helpless situations are made worse by the, “My child can do no wrong” mentality.

We have an obligation to our kids..on both sides. The bullied need to be protected and taught to deal with bullies. The bullies need to be taught as well. They are lacking some sort of social ability, and think they are problem solving by their cruelty, in that people do what they say, or react with them.

It’s been said that “to fail tell someone how you feel denies them the opportunity to change”. Kids will be kids, but the reason we don’t call them adults yet is that they are still growing and in need of guidance.
If we deny them that guidance, they are going to do worse than they currently are.

This has been a fascinating discussion- one that I’ve felt compelled to revisit several times over the course of the last few days. I hope it continues over the course of the week.

I think the issue really falls into 2 areas that, sadly, don’t always co-exist in our country. The first is the civil arena- individual rights- fought for and won by Mr. Cohen. The second is the Jewish arena- more about what’s good for the community and how we behave as a group.

In the cyberbullying and school power scenario a judgement has been made. But what of the moral and ethical case? What’s the ultimate judgement about how the children behaved toward each other, or how some behave toward each other on this blog? The mitzvot provide guidelines for appropriate behavior human to human. But there’s no lawsuit against someone not treating you the way you don’t want to be treated.

I prefer living along the lines of the moral-ethical arena but am thankful to live in a country where Mr. Cohen can take the civil arena on this issue.

Mr. cohen,

1- The grandfather I referred to was the original Cohen, Aharon. Not your father’s father. So I hope you read legal papers more carefully than you read my words.

2- I am a great champion of the limits on governmental powers. You simply refuse to acknowledge a Jewish discussion of an issue with Jewish legal implications in a Jewish magazine that is addressed on Jewish terms. Defending rights are great. Keep on, keeping on. But it is in and remains revealing how you possess no humility to even acknowledge the Jewish components involved. That, sir, is indeed a disgrace to the progenitor of your entire family line. And I would bet that the knowledge you possess of Aharon HaKohen Ohaiv Shalom could maybe fill a thimble.

3- Insults? Have you no sensibility to at least the tenor of all your postings?

4- For everyone else who actually cares about even being at risk of hurting someone through speech, the all-time expert on Lashon Hara, the Chofetz Chaim (ever heard of him, Evan?) made clear that when one does something in the public arena, they forfeit the protections and remedies that the laws of Lashon Hara provide.

5- Finally, where there is a conflict between man-made American laws, which are not based upon truth or justice (an act can be permitted in one local and felonious in another) and can be changed at the whim of an executive finding or the changed in the balance of political power or the make-up of a court, and Divine Law which has endured for 3700 years and is based solely upon truth and justice, I’ll take Halacha any day of the week.

Oh, BTW, I’ve been gentle with you, Mr. Cohen. And I care not as to whether you ‘like me’ or not. In that, we are the same. You obviously care not whether you are even likeable. Shabbat Shalom and have an easy fast on Monday night/Tuesday.

Maybe this bully Dad and bully girl legally got away with it, but what are they going to say to the great Judge in the Sky this Yom Kippur ?

I certainly know what The Judge is going say to them: How you treat others is how I am going to treat you. Beware.

Final thought: It’s so interesting to make note of the fact that the article and comment thread about how we treat each other has come during the Three Weeks/Nine Days/Tisha B’AV period which is all about destruction that results from the horrible ways we treat each other through ‘free speech.’
How much more horrible when evil speech is broadcast so that everyone can participate in the sin. Interesting.

Yes, Evan, shockingly, people are still interested in issues of decency, and in reconciling the requirements of the law with those of the heart. You’re the one in desperate need of a clue.

I’ve done plenty for the Constitution, actually, but that is neither here nor there.

Tell me, why do you refuse to acknowledge any component to this discussion other than the legal one? Is it so difficult to conceive that the law may not be all there is to it? When you say that “citizens” should be treated with respect, do you genuinely believe that it is only the government that has that obligation? Is it possible, just maybe, that “citizens” should also treat each other with respect? Is “respect” just limited to “not infringing on their civil rights” or does it have a broader meaning?

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