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Making History

Israeli President Shimon Peres reflects on his mentor, his peace partner, and whether the State of Israel will survive

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Shimon Peres in his Jerusalem residence earlier this year. (Menahem Kahana/AFP/Getty Images)

I ask about Bibi’s character. Has it also changed?

Peres: More than people change, circumstances change. Look, I was once a shepherd in [Kibbutz] Alumot]. And the gnats would set upon the herd, and each cow would run off in a different direction. And I had to collect and bring them home. This sometimes is how the government looks. There are gnats attacking each party, and somehow you have to keep them together.

How do you explain the rise in the delegitimization of Israel in the world in recent years? Do you agree that this is happening?

Let me give you a contrary picture: Israel is the most popular country in the world. [Peres’s media aide giggles. “Benny, you won’t leave here depressed,” she says.] For 2,000 years there was friction between the Vatican and the Jews. There are, what is it, 1.3 billion Christians? Now we have excellent relations with the Vatican. This is no small thing. And we have good relations with India, also hit by Muslim terrorists. And that’s together 3 billion. And [we now have] excellent relations with China.

Right. But why the delegitimization, especially in the West?

Firstly, there is a problem in the Scandinavian countries. They always want to appear like yefei nefesh [the Hebraism roughly translates as “bleeding hearts,” with an undertone of hypocrisy]. And I don’t expect them to understand us. Sweden doesn’t understand why we are at war. For 150 years they have not had a war. There were even Hitler and Stalin, but they kept out of the picture. As did Switzerland. So, they don’t understand why we are “for war,” as if we really like wars. It’s like Marie Antoinette didn’t understand why the people didn’t bake cakes. The same logic.

But it goes a bit beyond [Sweden and Switzerland]?

Our next big problem is England. There are several million Muslim voters. And for many members of parliament, that’s the difference between getting elected and not getting elected. And in England there has always been something deeply pro-Arab, of course, not among all Englishmen, and anti-Israeli, in the establishment. They abstained in the [pro-Zionist] 1947 U.N. Partition Resolution, despite [issuing the pro-Zionist] Balfour Declaration [in 1917]. They maintained an arms embargo against us [in the 1950s]; they had a defense treaty with Jordan; they always worked against us.

But England changed after the 1940s and 1950s. They supported us in 1967, there was Harold Wilson and Mrs. Thatcher [who were pro-Israeli].

There is also support for Israel today [on the British right].

But in Labor there was always a deep pro-Israeli current.

But [the late 1940s prime minister and Labor leader Clement] Attlee was [anti-Israel].

Anyway, this [pro-Israeli current] vanished because they think the Palestinians are the underdog. In their eyes the Arabs are the underdog. Even though this is irrational. Take the Gaza Strip. We unilaterally evacuated the Gaza Strip [in 2005]. We evacuated 8,000 settlers and it was very difficult, after mobilizing 47,000 policemen [and soldiers]. It cost us $2.5 billion in compensation. We left the Gaza Strip completely. Why did they fire rockets at us, for years they fired rockets at us. Why?

Maybe because they don’t like us?

Peres: You fire rockets at everyone you don’t like? For eight years they fired and we refrained from retaliating. When they fired at us, the British didn’t say a word.

Maybe it is anti-Semitism?

Yes, there is also anti-Semitism. There is in England a saying that an anti-Semite is someone who hates the Jews more than is necessary. But with Germany relations are pretty good, as with Italy and France.

But there is erosion of public pro-Israel sentiment—at the universities, in the press. I’m not talking about the governments.

I’ll tell you why. On television there is an asymmetry that can’t be corrected. What the terrorists do is never broadcast. Only the response is broadcast. And then critics charge: “This is disproportionate.” You don’t see the terrorist act. When a lawful nation fights a lawless nation there is a problem in the media. When an open regime fights a secret regime there is a problem.

What do you think about negotiating with Hamas?

Peres: It’s like talking to the wall. Hamas says we don’t want to talk, we want to destroy you, we don’t want peace with you. The difference between Hamas and Fatah is essential, not political. Fatah is a political organization. Politics is built on negotiation and compromise; religion does not compromise. So long as Hamas is a religious-political organization, I am deeply pessimistic.

About the Turkish flotilla, do you think we acted correctly?

We acted correctly, except in terms of explaining what happened.

We killed nine Turks, they killed no Israelis.

There were six boats. Only on one—where they came prepared for violence—was there a clash. There was a long delay in broadcasting our explanation. There is no starvation in Gaza and no siege. If Gaza would agree not to rocket us, we would leave the entry points open.

But we prevented items like cardamom from reaching Gaza.

OK, we made some mistakes. [But] we made another mistake—we restrained ourselves for eight years and allowed them to shoot thousands of rockets at us until the rage came out at one go [in the IDF assault on Hamas in Gaza in 2008-2009]. Had we done then what we do now, retaliate each time they fire a rocket—there would have been no problem. In the end, it turned out that restraint was a mistake.

Will Israel, the Jewish state, be here in a hundred years’ time?

Yes, I’m sure. I’m certain, 100 percent. The Jewish people have a niche in history based on a preference for the moral appeal over everything else. We didn’t always act in line with this, but we aimed for it. Since the Jews started out, they broke idols, banned slavery—

But the Jews were then exiled from their land for 2,000 years.

But we didn’t disappear in exile. We alone remained [from the ancient world]. In a hundred years, there won’t be wars. History is written in red ink. It’s mainly a history of wars. The main reason for war was that people earned their livelihood from land. People wanted either to defend their land or conquer more land. From the moment people live from science, force can’t do [anything]. An army can’t overcome science. All these borders will be blurred. The main reason for classic wars has disappeared. What will remain are fanatical religious groups, irrational groups, dangerous to the whole world. They will be destroyed in the end, out of self-defense. There won’t be wars. There will be great rivalry. Football will be more important than war, and science more important than football. There will be a contest to develop nature’s riches. What importance is there today to land?

Next: One state, two states

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MaxS says:

Peres has indeed contributed much to Israel. But as principal architect of the Oslo agreement, which has done more damage to Israel than all the other wars put together, I’m amazed that he still has the gall to show his face.

Ken Besig Israel says:

Shimon Peres and his dangerous naivete regarding peace with the Arabs and his downright ignorant support of Oslo, the Sharon Disengagement, and his appeasement mentality has killed, wounded, maimed, and disfigured more innocent Israeli Jews than all the Arab terrorist attacks in our history.
Shimon Peres’ voluntary submission to every ridiculous and lethal European and American demand for Israeli concessions to the Arabs has led to the Arabs thinking that all they have to do is wait long enough and most Israelis will become just as cowardly and weak as Peres.
Shimon Peres is perhaps the most dangerous element in the world Israel has to deal with. If only Peres’ shortcomings were the result of senility or Alzheimer’s, there might be some way to correct them, but Shimon Peres is a Left wing, Peace Now at any price with the Arabs, concessionist and appeaser, the Israeli version of WWII Neville Chamberlain if you will.
With luck and a generous helping of the mercy of God, we will never see Peres’ kind of sick and twisted betrayal of Israel ever again.

Ken Besig Israel says:

It is of course entirely appropriate that Peres should be interviewed by another dangerous and misguided Post Zionist Leftist so called historian Benny “know nothing about Israel, the Arabs, or the Middle East” Morris.
Mr. Morris has actually written history books about Israel, and managed in those books to libel Israel in some of the bitterest terms possible, that is, when he wasn’t publishing outright lies about Israel. For Benny Morris, Israeli soldiers and settlers are murderous baby killing thugs while the Arabs are the cream of humanity and a byword for restraint and compromise. Indeed, for Benny Morris the world would have been a much better place had the sin of Israel never been committed and the poor Arabs left to live their lives in peace and progress.
Benny Morris and Shimon Peres, what a pair of horse thieves they would make. You know they used to say that Peres would sell out Israel the first chance he got, but now they say Peres wouldn’t sell Israel, he’d just give it away. Benny Morris is a slightly different tale he just sold his soul and integrity so he would win the acclaim of the anti Israeli secular Left.
These two clowns deserve each other.

Sharon Kahn says:

I am wondering why Mr. Morris did not mention or ask Mr. Peres about his eponymous Peace Institute which, as far as I understand, concentrated heavily on creating the conditions for economic peace.

David Star says:

It amazes me to read Ken Besig’s sentiments regarding Peres and Benny Morris. His understatements of the foul deeds of these two shows a reticence for bringing out all the facts that should be known about them.

Ken Besig Israel says:

There is not enough room on the Internet nor are there enough words of condemnation available to use to describe the perfidy of Peres and Morris.
These two are beneath contempt.

allenby says:

peres’ Oslo Peeeeece formula has created a monster killing spree in Israel that lasted for almost 10 years. Don’t remember the exact number of Israelis killed, but it was probably the second in number of victims after the Yom Kippur War 1973.
Rabin didn’t want to go to oslo. Pundak and Beilin are those who created and handcrafted the oslo-pogroms together with their friend arafat. Did they know what arafat was planning ? an old experienced diplomat peres should have known the game arafat was playing. And what about Thousands of Sfardi children that were sacrificed for atomic experiments in dimona, as a trade with US ??? peres was then the head of Israel’s atomic commission.

Amiel Ungar says:

I was amused by the amalgam Harold Brown. I assume that the author meant either the prime minister Harold Wilson or the foreign minister George Brown.

Per Einar Sonnesyn says:

Too much to hide?
“About two weeks ago, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu signed regulations restricting access to government archives. As Barak Ravid revealed yesterday in Haaretz, 50-year-old materials that were to be opened to the public for historical study will now remain classified for two more decades.–
Israel, which this year celebrated its 62nd birthday, can and must confront the less than heroic chapters in its past and reveal them to the public and for historical study. The public has a right to know about the decisions made by the state’s founders, even if they involved violations of human rights, covering up crimes or harassing political opponents by security means. The country is mature and strong enough to absorb the criticism that could arise if, for example, previously unpublished testimonies are discovered about the events at Deir Yassin”, Haaretz wrote yesterday. How bad conscience does the prime minister have to do this?
And why does one Israeli Shalit count more than 10 000 palestinians in Israeli prison?
It is forgotten that Ashkelon is an old Palestinian town, with the mosque still in its center!

The facts on the ground speaks too loud to be subdued!

Per Einar

David says:

Israel is an historical anachronism, a blip in history. It will drown in a sea of Arabs. Israel faces the same fate that has befallen all other settler/colonialist enterprises dependent on the political support and largesse of another country thousands of miles away – abandonment. Time, the thrust of history, economics, geopolitics and demographics are with the Palestinians and the Arabs in general.

Martin K says:

Umm, did the president of Israel just call the UK a anti-semitic nation? Wtf?

Shalom Freedman says:

I do not believe Shimon Peres was wise in regard to ‘Oslo’. I believe he misjudged the intention of Arafat, and still does.
But to read this outpouring of vitriol against a man who has contributed so much tp the Jewish state is disheartening. Peres has spent his entire life helping to build the state of Israel. He is doing this still now. The list of his accomplishments is long indeed.
He is one of the true pioneer founding fathers of Israel whose complex story does credit both to him and to the Jewish people.
It would behoove those who fanatically condemn him to look at the whole picture, and and have a bit of gratitude for what he has done for Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole.

Binyamin in Orangeburg says:

The Thirteen Lies of Shimon Peres.
Lie Number 1: He [Ben-Gurion] did not give orders to expel.
Lie Number 2: They [the Iranians] want to destroy us. . . not that I’m saying they’re Nazis. . . .They are behind terrorism. Hezbollah.
Lie Number 4: I never agreed to 300,000 settlers.
[Racist] Lie Number 5: An Arab doesn’t compromise.
Lie Number 6: Things have changed [for the Palestinians]; [we] allow them to build, to develop their economy.
Lie Number 7: They [the British] always worked against us.
Lie Number 8: We left the Gaza Strip completely.
Lie Number 9: [Before Cast Lead] we refrained from retaliating [against the Hamas rockets]. … we restrained ourselves for eight years and allowed them to shoot thousands of rockets at us until the rage came out at one go. {Earth to Shimon, you killed 2500 Gazans between the time the Qassams started in the Fall of 2001 and Cast Lead. Total Israeli casualties over the same period from Gaza rockets – 27.}
Lie Number 10: Hamas says we don’t want to talk, we want to destroy you, we don’t want peace with you.
Lie Number 11: There is, in Gaza, no siege.
Lie Number 12: We [the Jews] alone remained [from the ancient world].
Lie Number 13 {THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL}: There is no solution in one state.

Mixed in with the lies are a few truths:
There was an exaggerated enthusiasm after [the victory of] 1967.
The other defamation against my character—that my mother was an Arab. Untrue. [But I am a racist.]
I got from him [Arafat] what no one else would have: To move their demands from the 1947 [U.N. partition plan] borders [which gave the Jews 55 perecent of Mandate Palestine] to the 1967 borders [which gave the Israel 78 percent of Mandate Palestine]. No other Arab leader would have [conceded this]. . . . Arafat wanted peace.

David says:

For the record, Shimon Peres was born in Poland and his real name is Shimon Persky. Perhaps nothing better illustrates the utter fraudulence of Zionism than the fact that in an absurd attempt to legitimize a false link between them and the ancient Israelites, many of Israel’s leaders changed their names in favour of Hebrew ones. David Gruen became David Ben-Gurion; Goldie Myerson became Golda Meir; Ariel Shinerman became Ariel Sharon, etc.

Nor must we forget that Shimon Peres was responsible for the April 1996 premeditated massacre of over 100 innocent Lebanese civilians in the Qana UN compound. He should have been arrested, charged and put on trial as a war criminal.

Dave says:

A great state-man, with true vision. so much of his vision is already applied.
Wish Israel had more people like him. When a person like that talks, should listen and take some time for thinking more on what he said and meant. Experience and rare view combined with humanism.

(a tad embarrassing to see some of the comments here. how low will people go to sound an anti-israeli opinion no matter what is the context?! … like David’s argument with the names changing… this is ridiculous.. pure lack of knowledge and understanding competing with anti-israeli prejudice.. )

David says:

Dave

Like it or not, by changing their names, Peres et al. have assumed false identities. There is no lack of knowledge on my part and as for my “anti-israel [sic] prejudice..,” I freely admit that I stand with the Palestinian victims, not with Israel, their well documented victimizer.

JonathanInTelAviv says:

Simple people who don’t accept a secure Israel label Peres a right-wing extremist, while simple people who don’t accept an Israel at peace with the Moslem world label him a left-wing extremist. But the conflict isn’t simple, and anyone pushing a simple solution is a fool.

David Bramhall says:

Another lie to add to Peres’ list: there is no common saying in England that “an anti-Semite is someone who hates the Jews more than is necessary”. Perhaps Mr.Peres could give us his source, though I suspect that he just made it up.

His recent comments about Britain have caused great hurt in a nation that by and large regards itself as pro-Jewish and pro-Israeli. If Mr.Peres thinks that Britain favours the Arab nations, he might like to reflect on the fact that they got oil and he don’t. We have no choice but to deal with them.

@David

I wonder if you even realize how much your insane, lunatic rant supports Peres’ assertion?

And David, while oil is probably the main motivating factor, the reality is you do hate us regardless. And by “us” i’m referring to Jews, Israelly or otherwise.

As a British citizen, I take great exception to President Peres calling my country anti-Semitic.

This criticism is simply not consistent with the facts. Quite apart from the Balfour Declaration, it is clear from Tom Segev’s history of the British Mandate “One Palestine Complete” that the British were not neutral between Palestine’s Arab and Jewish residents; instead they consistently favoured the interests of the Jewish residents.

Regor says:

Mr. Peres accuses the English of being anti-semitic? He should not confuse the ordinary ethnic English who stood alone in 1940 against the Nazis and gave shelter to persecuted Jewish people and the England of today.It is not the ordinary ethnic English who are desecrating Jewish cemeteries, synagogues and memorials or spouting pro-arab and anti-Israeli rhetoric but the foreign colonists who have been allowed to settle here in major cities, who may call themselves British or not, and who are well represented in an oppresive British parliament. Like the Israelis the English( but without an English parliament to protect their interests)feel beleaguered and surrounded by enemies.

lovelyisraelis says:

The British are repulsed by Israel for the same reason the rest of humanity is repulsed by these criminals.

It’s not anti-Semitism. It’s anti-Nazism.

British (and Jewish) labor MP Gerald Kauffman spells this out nicely for the pro-Israel goons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Lisa Abramowicz says:

Regor: I admire and revere Britain for standing up against och fighting the Nazi regime during WWII even when it wasn’t opportune to do so. But I beg to differ on another matter. You claim that Britain
“gave shelter to persecuted Jewish people”. How many did Britain actually give shelter to? Even temporarily? Very few. At the same time stopping Jews from trying to get into Mandate Palestine. Two thirds of the European Jews perished during the war after having been stripped of all civil and human rights. Even after the war when no one could say that they didn’t know, very few countries incl Britain was prepared to let in large numbers of survivors.

REGOR says:

Lisa, how many? I understand in the 1930′s about 90,000 plus around 10,000 children under the “Kindertransport” programme. Yes, more could have been done. In the main the English have been friendly to Jews and were the authors of the Balfour Declaration. However, the British government were guilty of a betrayal of the Jewish people dduring the Mandate period and, of course, at the bottom of this was oil. The British relied on Arab regimes of the Middle East so a pro-arab policy on palestine served best to protect oil rights and the Suez canal.In England at the moment I believe there are some 350,000 Jews who add something to the life of the mind, music, art, science, medecine, etc. and my country, England, would be the poorer for their absence.

lovelyisraelis says:

And lest we forget, ALL of the Jewish children in saved by England from the holocaust would be dead if the repulsive Israeli criminal and psychopath David Ben Gurion had had his way:

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter.”

Great friends of the Jews, these Israelis!

Dov Ber says:

Shimon Peres is very well respected for his vision. He sees the end-game. He knows what is possible. He is also a mentor to Barak Obama. He is humble, gentle, and kind– he is a jewish sage

Yaakov Hillel says:

To my friend Mohammed Amin and the rest of the British cronies. The saving of 10000 Jewish children whose families completely perished in the holocaust, mainly because the British locked the gates of Palestine for them to escape to, does not give England any credits.The Jews were thrown out of England hundreds of years earlier, the antisemitism is in their blood.the Universities trying to ban israel is the continuation of the great English love for jews. The Book/movie “the ship of fools tells an important angle of the story that the Jews were not let in to any country in the world including England and the United States. The British caused unseaworthy ships full of refugees not into Palestine and they sank with their thousdands of Jews that have gone in the holocaust. the British were partners to the Nazis when they could have blown up the railroads into the death camps and the death camps them selves. I have one good thing i can say about the British, they are inviting friends like Amin into England with a free hand they would not let the jews. The Jews would have turned England into a true empire the muslims will send england to an odyessy that goes back 1300 years where Their Leader who lied and murdered and was a praised pedophile who has taught to put women in their places. We see in the world that if a Muslim girl is raped then her family burn her to death. this is the world that the British have turned to, and they cannot turn the wheel back. Today you are going to pay for what you did to the Jews sixty years ago. The people who are going to make your life misrable are he ones you let into Palestine in the hundred of thousands when you would not let The tortured Jews in.

Yaakov Hillel says:

Shimon Peres Belongs to the socialist/ once communist party of Israel. His mentor David Ben-Gurion was useless when it came to protecting the Jews against Muslims But he was brilliant when he gave orders to Kill Jews because they were not socialist-communists. He gave an order to look good among his non Jewish socialist-Communist friends to sink a ship in Tel Aviv Harbor with shooting canon fire at it. And his son of legacy Yitzchak.Rabin gave orders to machine gun the survivors who jumped off the exploding ship to save their lives and swim to safety. Ben Gurion carries the responsibility of having Zombied 16 year-olds (I have living proof) shoot survivors which was a planned act of murder from the roof tops of the hotels. Their only sin was they were not Socialist- Communists,and may be Israel would be a democratic country with revisionists (capitalists) taking over government some day. This is the true mentor and socialist half brother of Shimon Peres that the Israelis cry over their legacy. Maybe I have become a target now like Yitzchak Rabin who was put to death by a conspiracy.

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Making History

Israeli President Shimon Peres reflects on his mentor, his peace partner, and whether the State of Israel will survive