Wake-Up Call

“increasingly, any serious conversation about Israel’s policies is to be had outside of Israel’s borders”

What a truly astounding statement. Are we to believe that Israelis are not having “serious conversation” about their policies? They are among the world’s most voracious consumers of news and they are the ones who send their children off to the army and are most closely affected by their government’s policies. Yet they’re really not having “serious” conversations about them?

I think what Liel means to say is that leftist conversations are increasingly outside of Israel’s borders because, unfortunately, those policies were tried (in 2000, 2008, etc.) by Israel and failed.

So Israelis have learned not to be persuaded by those arguments and the proponents of them must move outside Israel in order to pressure the Israelis from the outside to do what they have learned does not work.

This is a very slanted piece. 972 hosts some of the crassest anti-Zionists in the Israeli press. Be it Gurvitz, ex-972er Joseph Dana or a writer who is active with Zochrot. Zonszeinlike Dana is a media commentator for Al Jazeera. These people are on the hard core left wing fringe of Israeli society. Dana lives in Ramallah and tours the USA with an ISM founder speaking at anti-Israel venues, when he is not having dinner with Max Blumenthal.
Cross checking 972′s reporting often show’s left wing polemics and in Gurvitz’s case an open hatred for Israel by someone who has a remarkable knowledge of the local communist party.
What Liel does not mention are the Tel Aviv buses which were “popping like pop corn” a few years ago. The passenger’s on these buses were the very people who supported to peace process which failed at Camp David II a month earlier. Nobody asks the Tel Avivian’s how they cope with their PTSD ( Thanks for mentioning Lisa Goldman ) after multiple shredded commuter buses on Dizengof.
I used to follow 972 religiously, but it has become another home of the international anti-Zionist far left. Many commenters come straight from mondoscheiss.
It shows a complete lack of understanding of what Israel is about and what the majority of Israeli’s feel and live through when reading 972.
It is laughable. The majority of people publishing at 972 aren’t even from Israel. They either made aliyah and brought their North American sensibilities to Israel ( no IDF service ) or are Arab.

Sorry, but the hysteria that is expressed by most writers at 972 is anything but an alarm clock. It is one thing to express ones concern for the future of our country and another to diminish the amazing viability and freedom to dialogue about anything that is developing in the social arena in Israel.

We have a healthy social and political system that allows and tolerates extreme opinions regardless of the stupidity that undermines it. I have met Lisa Goldman and while I do not pretend to know why she left the country, to suggest it was because of Israel’s present situation is a bit of a stretch.

She has made a living trashing and demeaning Israel and its people. Writing and criticizing Israel from abroad just doesn’t allow for serious creditability.

To support my contention about Ms. Goldman’s feelings about Israel her quote above says it all.”I’m trying to wake you up to the fact that things are really bad. We’re near the end.”

Sorry Lisa and 972 we are far from “really bad” or “near the end.” We are struggling with apposing ideologies by the left and the right with a center that is being re-born once again to keep these extremists in check.

Canada is a very nice place to live but it is not Israel and crying wolf doesn’t help any. It only enhances the twisted motives of those that prefer to see the elimination of the Jewish homeland.

The reason that only 20% of 972 readers are from israel is that the site is in English. Furthermore, the vast majority of their bloggers are Anglos who grew up in the US and later moved to Israel for the purpose of Activism. It is doubtful that some bloggers such as Joseph Dana would even be comfortable writing in Hebrew.

There is not one Mizrachi/Sephardic blogger neither are there any religiously observant bloggers. As was mentioned, many of the blog posts, such as the ones from Joseph Dana, are near copy and paste jobs from Electronic intifada, promoting Boycotts and Sanctions against Israel until they allow the right of return of millions of Palestinian refugees. Needless to say, these positions have never had any support among 97% of Israeli Jews. .

Some of the blog posts are devoid of serious analysis and make fun of groups such as settlers and Christian supporters of Israel in a highly mocking way. I wonder why any fund would find this a useful way to spend their money.

Some posts display a profound misreading of Israeli culture such as Ami Kaufman’s recent assertion that, “Israelis hate anyone who isn’t white” – although judging from the lack of any sephardic voices on 972 one could forgive Ami for forgetting that the majority of Israelis are about as White as any other Middle Eastern population.

Many of the commenters on the talkback migrate directly from obsessive and viruntly anti zionist and anti semitic sites such as mondoweiss.

For a much better peek at leftism among israelis I recommend Haaretz English as many of their opeds are translated directly from the original Hebrew.

I must add that I do like the 972 bloggers Yuval Ben Ami and Dahlia Sheindlin is not bad either.

Here is a “classic” Yossi Gurvitz piece
http://972mag.com/israelis’-perverse-support-of-terrorism/

David Fisher:

Australia and the US make poor analogies to Israel, where you have citizens who speak different languages, regardless of religious observance. A better analogy would be Canada, where language and religious minorities are accommodated in varying degrees.

As regards Lisa Goldman, I was never impressed by her “Flesh is grass” blogsite. She gives herself away with her reference to Cast Lead, the proportions of the operation which were fully justied by Israel, with blame for the extent of civilian losses resting primarily with Hamas and the “millitants” who insist there is no political resoltion outside of a binational state and are willing to use Palestinians as human shields/sacrifices to achieve that end.

And you cannot argue for more international pressure on Israel without arguing in equal measure for pressure on the Palestinians for their intransigencies.

Correction:

“These authors need to ask why is it that liberalism isn’t persuading many voters not just in Israel nut in the West in general.”

Should read:

These authors need to ask why is it that liberalism isn’t persuading many voters not just in Israel but in the West in general.

I read +972 regularly everyday. Thanks Liel. Good article.

Yeah, Jules the resident troll loves 972. no surprises there.
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Goldman’s rose coloured articles, I dare say ignorant, have not come true. Egypt is in political and economic paralyses. The economy is cratering. ‘Yuuuhuuuu embrace the Arab Spring.’
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The one Jew who dared to come back to Tripoli was flown out by the Italian Air Force because they were going to lynch him for praying at his old synagogue.
Syria is marching towards civil war, Iraq is Iraq and Iran is building the Shiite bomb.
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Spring time for fanatical Islamism, winter for Enlightenment.
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But I am happy Goldman, with her anti-Zionist credentials found some dare devil Egyptians who did not boycott her on the spot. Her acid tweet regarding Ilan Grapel’s truthfulness about his Zionism in dealing with his Cairo friends will live in infamy.
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Recalling my trip into revolutionary Egypt, I can write that I was stopped three times by the secret police and asked if I was Israeli. Such open anti-semitism and in typical Arab fashion, bad allocation of resources ( hunting Jews ) sums up much that is missed in 972′s wider publication of facts and the deeper dynamic Israel is up against when dealing with people who “seek peace”. Be it the brain washed Egyptian’s or “democratic” Hamas.

“Egyptians are not brainwashed. They remember their elementary school being bombed by Israel; they remember their children dying and being permanently wounded. They remember the occupation of Sinai.”

Ayla Adler is of course joking.

An overwhelming number of Egyptians were born after the 1970′s. So what exactly can they remember?

How many Egyptians “remember their schools being bombed” and How many saw their “children dying and being wounded” Ayla?

The Egyptian casualty numbers of the 1973 wars can only be estimated since the government never released any figures. The guess is about 8 thousand (Israel with a much smaller population suffered close to three thousand).

I don’t know who you are Ayla but if your write for that rag you call a magazine I am not surprised so few Israelis read it.

No rational persona wants to be bombarded with lies and propaganda. Israel isn’t a communist country, yet, Ayla.

I guess the National Socialist Nasser does not come into the game. Including the strange fact that Aza was never turned into Palestine under Nasser. Minor detail?
Like Nasser, all Arab leaders have failed, and will continue to fail. Anti-Semitism does not create literacy or jobs. Never has.
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Adler and Jules are the living/writing proof that 972 caters to a certain crowd. People who do not understand Israel. That’s why the site is not in Hebrew. Nobody would read it. Correction 2%.
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This whole discussion has been had one million times. 972 does this 24/7.
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It is a freak show, like Berlin anarchist punks, like OWS, like Berkeley vegan’s, like the people who stand outside Melbourne chocolate shops because the shop is Israeli owned.
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Meanwhile Assad has killed 5500 of “his” people, and Turkey continues its war against the Kurds, China its cultural genocide against Tibet. But Palestine is just too sexy to let go…..makes you think….think….think….think…..think…..think….
and another 34 Syrian’s were shot in the street.
Like · · a few seconds ago ·

The signing of the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty is no fiction, the childish smear and insult aimed at me being some sort of insidious Iranian secret agent most assuredly is.

The treaty was signed on March 26 1979.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_Peace_Treaty

I’m telling you what Egypt remembers, and how Egypt remembers (yes, including people who were not yet born in 1970). I know this from talking to Egyptians. But I can totally understand your disbelief, since Israelis and Jews would never, ever hold a memory of anything that happened to us as long ago as, gasp, 1970 and allow that to affect our worldview. Nor would we ever bring in any bit of history to support or shape our arguments/feelings/beliefs unless that bit of history happened to us (not our mothers, not our grandfathers, not Jews an ocean away) personally, and we could personally remember it. We are a people who just let it go, shake it off and move on! ;)
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Go on refusing to believe things that are true. This is exactly the kind of denial that has us in the state of alarm you also deny.
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If 1970 was so long ago that we can’t even remember it, you might want to consider that Palestinians have been living under occupation even longer.

Dude, I know Jewish Israelis whose families came from Egypt and who suffered greatly in the 1950′s after Nasser came to power.

It was no picnic even before 1948 but after the Colonel coup it got even worse.

Much has been written about the fate of Jews in Arab countries of North Africa
one of the best articles is this one:

“Une si longue presence: comment le monde arabe a perdu ses juifs 1947-1967″ by Nathan Weinstock, Plon, 2008, 358 pp.

by Lyn Julius

http://dissentmagazine.org/democratiya/article_pdfs/d15Julius.pdf

It’s a book review. The author of the book Nathan Weinstock was a French Communist who supported the Arab cause till he went to North Africa an saw for himself the realities of Jewish life there.

Ayla Adler: “Left wingers who believe that right wing politics are killing Israel, as I do, don’t have the audacity to call those right wingers “anti-Israel”. This, from right wingers against leftists, is shameless.”

There are right-wingers who will oppose opposition to any settlement of Biblical Israel. However, there are lines which would force anyone to admit that an argument has ventured into anti-Israel territory. One of those lines is support for the BDS campaign. When 972 needs the threat of lawsuits to declare BDS as off limits, then it is fair to call them anti-Israel or at least tolerant of anti-Israelism.

At best, they are like the Hasmonean family seeking the intersession of Rome to adjudicate which one of them will rule.

Moshe–Do you think Jerusalem was given to us as a capital when we were given Israel as a Jewish State? Do you know Palestinians who define themselves as The People Against a Jewish State (and not as For Themselves)? I don’t suppose you know any Palestinians whose grandfather fled, who has never once been permitted to come back even to visit, who wants this right not as an act against you, but simply because he wants to show his children his home.
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Jules–I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why you’re making this argument, or presenting this well-known information, about the peace treaty.
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Scott–this is my point. Some people feel that divesting from Israel would help Israel become a just Israel, so to us, this is not anti-Israel. To us, the American government’s financial enabling of Israel hurts Israel. I am personally not for boycotts, certainly not blanket ones. As for 972 writers, they’ve made it very clear that they each have different views on the subject.

I must correct myself in my earlier comment. Israel occupied Egypt’s Sinai peninsula from 1967 (after the six day war) until the peace treaty with Egypt signed in 1979. Israel’s final evacuation of the Sinai peninsula occurred in 1982.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories#The_Sinai_Peninsula

Nasser was not nor was he ever a national socialist. At which university did you study world history Dude, through some bogus correspondence course? A good education is valuable when attempting to ascertain facts.

Jacob Arnon–that is priceless about my use of the word “remember”. So, by your argument, Jews should stop saying “Never Forget”, unless it happened to us personally, because that’s a metaphorical use of the word “forget”?
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This (among other experiences) is what Egypt remembers. I’ll bet you can’t find an Egyptian over 18 who doesn’t know of this and have a strong response to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_bombing_of_Bahr_El-Baqar_primary_school
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Goodnight, America. It’s 1:30 a.m. here in the Holy Land. Keep your ears and eyes closed! Don’t learn anything new! Don’t ever be wrong about anything, no matter what! Sweet Dreams!

Only those woefully ignorant of Israel’s plight,such as some outside of Israel, or those imprisoned in a blinding ideology, such as extremist Israeli left-wingers, are amenable to +972′s messages.

“Jacob Arnon–that is priceless about my use of the word “remember”. So, by your argument, Jews should stop saying “Never Forget”, unless it happened to us personally, because that’s a metaphorical use of the word “forget”?”

Ayala, you are veering into irrationality:

It is one thing to claim to have a cultural memory about a national event and quite another to tell people to remember a particular occurrence in that event.
Texans like to say ‘remember “the Alamo” but no sane Texas will say that they personally remember the battle that took place there. Or when the Quebecois say in French “je me souviens” (about the wars with British) they don’t mean that they personally remember. C’est une facon de parler, as they would also say) and not an actual memory).

Egyptians can say that they “remember” the wars with Israel in general it’s quite another to say that they remember a particular incident in that war which occurred before they were born.

Btw: the bombing of that school was an accident of war (in war one foten kills one’s own troops also) unlike the rounding up of Jewish women and babies and throwing them into gas chambers. You should be ashamed of yourself for truing to equate the two events.

Now, Ayala, I am not going to go into the larger issue of your implicit comparison of the Holocaust to the Arab-Israeli wars. But when Jews say “never again” they are not asked to remember specific events in the Shoah but the fact that it took place at all.

Ayala, given the shape (logic) of your arguments I am not surprised that so few people in Israel take you seriously.

Jacob, Israel used white phosphorous bombs on the people of Gaza just four years ago. Were you trying to prove that Israel holds some special sainted moral high ground in how it wages war?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

you know, as a regular 972 commenter, I had never thought of this until now, but one reason I appreciate commenting there is the wide range of commenters and how much I learn from them as well as from the writers. Regularly, there are a few Israelis from settlements, from Kibbutzim, from Jerusalem, Tel Aviv; pretty much all over Israel. There are Palestinian commenters from the West Bank and from refugee families in the diaspora. And of course there are diaspora Jews, from Australia, Europe, the U.S. It’s interesting that on a comment thread in which people are criticizing where readers and writers are from, most of you, it seems, are diaspora Jews. It’s a beautiful, rainy day here in the Negev. I’m on my way to pick up Tahina that my Palestinian-Israeli friend brought me from Nablus, and then I’ll be cooking for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom, Tablet Readers. If you care about Israel, as I trust you do, please believe me when I say: It’s bad here. There is a lot less democracy for Israelis than there was a year ago, two years ago. We’re ignoring the basic human rights of African Refugees, by legal International (and obvious moral) standards. With the death of the Two State Solution comes despair: how to end this Occupation that is morally corrupting us and keeping everyone on both sides of the line trapped in a hellish relationship? This is not business as usual. It hasn’t been for years. A lot has shifted, and if we don’t acknowledge and respond to those shifts without getting characteristically defensive, we’re in trouble.

Hey Comrades, I am out of hashish. Send me some over fast!

– Mikey Lerner, Tikkun Magazine

Now for what I wanted to write. There are Palestinians who are willing to make accommodations with Israel under reasonable terms. Unfortunately, none of them have any position of power. Abbas is not a partner for any reasonable settlement, and propping him up will only suppress those who are.

If you want to find a reasonable Palestinian, try talking to the Palestinian journalists who flock to Israel to practice real journalism. Try talking to any of the Palestinian academics who would have liked to talk with their Israeli counterparts but had to back out under threats from Fatah. Try talking to any of the leaders of the Palestinian villages surrounding Efrat who regularly meet with Rabbi Riskin. Try talking with any of the villagers there who don’t have a village hospital because their legislator thought Israel’s best contribution to the Palestinians would be to “get out of Efrat then get out of Jerusalem then get out of Tel Aviv,” after the town of Efrat had raised the money to build a village hospital for their Palestinian neighbors.

Yes the occupation is corroding the fabric of Israeli society, I could write about that elsewhere. However, dealings with and capitulations to Abbas are a non-solution. The largest problem that Israel faces today is that there are too few Israelis who recognize both that the occupation is a problem and that working with Abbas is a non-solution.

Jules continues to talk to himself.

There are a number of tings that motivates a Jew hater like Jules, but neither love nor a a desire for peace is among them.

Jules doesn’t love the Arabs he just hates Jews, period.

This is why he ignores the millions of Arabs killed by their fellow Arabs.

Jacob Arnon–this is the last thing I will say to you: do not take what I made parallel without any stretch whatsoever (you spoon fed my argument) and pretend I made another thing parallel. That’s cheap, and desperate.
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I’m telling you why Egypt feels how they do about Israel. You can say that’s not fair, or not rational, or not right, or anything else you want to say, but it won’t change the truth in the fact that Egypt, who was in part occupied by Israel for over a decade and whose people feel akin to Palestinians, has many reasons to feel this way that we can not simply attribute to “brainwashing”. I never placed a personal value judgement their feelings or reasons; I merely shared them, as I have learned them through genuine inquiry (a practice I recommend to you). Your head is in the sand, your comparisons (ie Texas), irrelevant.
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We are brainwashed, too. We really are. How much do you know about Deir Yassin, or any other number of events that live large in the collective Palestinian memory (yes, memory). Not much more than they know about ours. We create each other. We are mirror images of each other. As long as you want to pretend that we have the moral high ground, that we are right and they are brainwashed, you will be contributing to nothing but a waste of your own time and our energy.

“We are brainwashed, too. We really are. How much do you know about Deir Yassin…”

I know a lot more than you think and besides not knowing isn’t the same as being “brainwashed.”

Not agreeing with you is not a sign of being brainwashed.

Ayala, I do not talk about myself online, so I will not say anything here neither.

I do appreciate your desire to understand one another.

However, when it comes to nations and peoples deciding on issues of war and peace individuals need to make their voices heard within their respective communities.

As I said I would like Israel to withdraw most settlers from the territories but not its soldiers. That next step would come only after a peace deal is signed with the PA.

To achieve this first step you need to engage Israeli voters on this one issue alone.

Talking about perfect understanding and all other such pie in the sky notions will only turn off the average voters.

This is were your magazine is wrong. You seem to write not for Israelis but for Westerners whose views about the sins of Israel you are trying to justify.

This isn’t going to “save Israel,” nor is it going get to lead to greater understanding.

What we need is less hand wringing and more practical solutions like getting Israelis to see tat withdrawing the settlers from the West Bank will make Israel stronger and not weaker.

Arnon–I just want to let you know that I’m going to turn off my internet for the remainder of shabbat. I need a break, and am actually a bit shattered from my realization about you (which, by the way, you can ask the site to remove if you wish) and how I was speaking to you. In fairness to myself, you were being quite condescending… However, it is way too easy for us to judge each other, especially on these comment threads. Let’s try to remember that all of us feel passionate for the same reason; we’re like parents who disagree, vehemently, about what is best for our child’s survival and wellbeing. This is hard. But we must remember our common ground, which, I believe, we share also with our neighbors, and, frankly, all mankind. If you and I make each other the enemy, then wow, we’ve really lost our way.

Changing tack here and out of the trench. I encourage to view Adam Curtis’s film on “Oh Dearism”, it is on Youtube.
Also in a similar vain this gem on his blog,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2011/03/goodies_and_baddies.html

In German there is a word for people like Adler and Jules, it is Gutmensch, the adverb being gutmenschtum. Badly translated this is goody goo.

I would like to add that I am always for compromise, for moderate and not extreme positions.

In political life even pro human rights positions can become extreme and immoderate.

Mahatma Gandhi who dedicated his life to human rights caused the deaths of millions because he refused to accept political reality and didn’t prepare India for the partition that established Pakistan.

Compare this to Martin Luther King in the US who was willing to accept compromise and in the process created a civil rights movement that eventually made it possible for a Black man to be elected President of the US.

In the middle east context it was Ben Gurion who because he accepted compromise led his country to independence.

The Palestinian Arabs on the other hand refused all compromise and we know what ensued.

Had the Begin and not Ben Gurion been the head of the Yishuv I doubt that Israel would have achieved independence in 1948.

Clearly, in reviewing the development in the Arab Israeli conflict during the past two to three decades, the strategic intent of the Muslim-Arabs, local and regional alike, has been to veil the international legal underpinning of the questions at hand and the way to resolve them. And, some overly eager to reach a “solution” to this intractable conflict, have opted to be manipulated into the make-belief “new paradigm” created by some Muslim-Arab leaders.

Obviously, the “new paradigm” has been only part of the imagination of those eager to achieve peace, thus it has proven unsustainable and two decades since the Madrid Peace Conference we are still dealing with the same fundamental questions that refuse to disappear.

Therefore, why don’t we all return to international law, the most objective method of dealing with disputes and conflicts, and set out to bring about an accommodation of peaceful coexistence (if indeed this what we hope to achieve…) between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world and the nation-state of the Jewish people, Israel.

A very good place to start is the following document:

http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/mandate_for_palestine/MandateN2%20-%2010-29-07-English.pdf

p.s. Do you think that most 972 writers don’t advocate a Two State Solution? I gather that most of them do, and that most of them are quite upset about what appears to be the death of it. Most of them are not so radical when it comes to solutions (I am more than they are); they’re just trying to reveal the problems so that people will wake up and stop accepting the status quo. Most Israelis would go on living with the Occupation as long as there were no suicide bombings or rockets or etc. That most people see 972 as extreme only proves how ignorant we are about the seriousness of the problems, here, including problems that are only loosely related to Palestinians (freedom of press/speech, treatment of refugees, etc.).

The celebrants of the ‘Arab spring’ in Egypt are perhaps popping the champagne corks today when the results of the first Egyptian democratic election are in, and the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists have garnered two – thirds of the seats in the Egyptian parliament. Perhaps the poor benighted majority of Israelis who sensed what the results of the ‘Arab spring’ would most likely be were slightly wiser than the self- righteous ignoramuses of yet another self- hating Leftist publication.

Ayla,
sadly I do not deem it safe to use my real name in these forum’s.
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Experience has shown that those involved in hasbara are attacked and lied about by the very cohorts you work with and argue for here. One of the method’s Joseph Dana’s co-activists use is public intimidation and the spreading of lies. There is an entire anti-Zionist publishing industry out there which lives of feeding an anti-Semitic frenzy. I have no time for the Ben White’s, Jonathan Cook’s, Max Blumenthal’s and Ali Abunimah’s, Finkelstein’s and the mondoscheiss crew of this world.
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They like you are best ignored. I have more constructive thing’s to do.
Thankfully.
I create.
They destroy.

@Shalom Freeman–so you would prefer for Egyptian people Mubarak, a dictator who merely shielded us from the realities of what Egyptians think of Israel? This Revolution (and @Dude–it is (not was) a revolution) is at a very beginning point. Personally, I prefer to deal with whatever is true to a false peace, because the false peace is more dangerous. Rest assured that plenty of Egyptians are upset about these election results. And not on our behalf…
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@PhillipMann–plenty of Arab leaders speak out against terrorism, and there are loads of peaceful protests going on in the Palestinian Territories daily, right now. Where’s the mainstream MEDIA? Also, Palestinians feel the same way about us when we don’t speak out against our murders of them (and I don’t mean during war). And why don’t we? Because (I hope) we don’t even know about them. Enter 972.
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@Adam–Your family sounds great (arabic speaking is especially wonderful). I was more of a Seeds of Peace kind of leftist before I moved here (nothing against SOP–just saying). Now I see things as much more dire. The occupation simply cannot go on. I do realize that in settings such as SOP (which most Palestinians are sadly actually against these days), there is much more willingness on the part of Israelis to listen and change than on the part of Palestinians. This is a problem. Palestinians have a much harder time imagining how on earth we could perceive ourselves as the victims, or being willing to see any symmetry whatsoever. Generally, Palestinians don’t want to talk about the peace that is being offered to them (they get no military, no right to return, etc.); they want to talk about justice as they see it: rights. However, they don’t want to obliterate Israel, now or in the future (though sure you can find violent extremists on both sides). They want their lives back. I hope you’re wrong about people really knowing the full affects of the occupation; my understanding is more generous.

“The soldiers would be withdrawn when the PA and Israel sign a peace settlement.”

I don’t see the PA signing anything that we can rely on. The problem is that officials of the PA will tell the West that all they want is to secure basic rights for the Palestinian people and that they are ready to offer a fair deal to the Zionists in order to secure those rights. However, when they suspect that no Westerners are listening, such as when they go on Al Jazeera, they speak of uprooting all the Jews from the region. There was one time, I saw it a while ago and am not sure how to locate it, when a PA official was on Al Jazeera and assured the audience that his agenda was the elimination of Israel and that his public utterances to the contrary are simply because the West would not accept such aims.

This is a description of the Palestinian National Movement, not the Palestinian people at large. Unfortunately, with the PA exercising total control over education and media, there are fewer and fewer Palestinians whose worldviews are shaped by anything other than justification for this mindset.

If you ask me what to do, I’d say to start by identifying a town of bloc of villages near the border where the leadership is amenable to genuine compromise and offer them independence from Israel and the PA. In the interim, they will require Israeli protection from the PA, but with time it would be possible to train their own security forces and allow Israeli withdrawal. Allow the leaders in this territory to be seen as delivering progress for their people and one of the arguments on the Palestinian side for rejectionism would lose some validity. This would allow the seed of Palestine to grow by annexation as more towns and villages come to accept a role for Jews in their region.

Ayla: “However, they don’t want to obliterate Israel, now or in the future”

Perhaps the individuals don’t, but the national does. Argue to the contrary if you wish, but don’t tell me what they tell you, the ones from the national movement are sophisticated enough to know that westerners like yourself would not accept their demands. If you find something they say in Al Jazeera or similar media, that would constitute evidence of what you say.

Now the issue is how do you further the rights of Palestinian individuals who do not seek destruction of the Jews without empowering the national movement which sees every concession received as a tool with which to bring the destruction of Jewish sovereignty closer. My immediately prior comment is one such possibility. I’m open to others.

Jacob Arnon–I agree with this “there is an international legal procedure in place to end the military occupation.
In any case, this has little to do with the settlements which is a drag on the Israeli economy and puts the lives of many Israeli soldiers at risk.” And I’d like to see us evacuate the settlements too, by and large; I just don’t agree that the best strategy is to put all our eggs in that basket. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the means; we seem to agree mostly on the ideal end.
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I don’t believe that people know the full affect of the occupation (and how would people claiming otherwise know if they are among those who only have partial information?), but let’s also agree to disagree on that.
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Scott–why do you think that the Palestinian Governing forces want to obliterate Israel? I know that’s a popular idea. It seems to come from the fact that they won’t recognize us. But the more I learn from people deep inside negotiations (not journalists), the more I don’t believe it’s true. They won’t outright recognize us as a “Jewish State”, but that’s more a matter of rights for Arab Citizens than an unwillingness to accept that we, Jews in Israel, with our Jewish Calendar and Right to Return and historic ties to the land, are here to stay. There’s a lot of posturing going on; its a chess game for rights and land. We’ll need to agree to disagree here, too, but for the record.

`They won`t outright recognise us as a Jewish state.`

So what`s the point of the exercise? To simply give in on some hint of acommodation ?They can`t even bring themselves to say `Israel` in a public forum.

As for murders by settlers, there may be cases,but it isn`t official policy, as it is with Hamas and Hizbollah., I`ve never seen a popular movement in from the Arabs saying `This is not the way to go`. Where is some leader willing to go on record and say in Arabic that compromises must be made ?

“Scott–why do you think that the Palestinian Governing forces want to obliterate Israel? I know that’s a popular idea.”

Name one thing they have said to their own people in their media that makes you believe they are prepared to live peacably with Israel.

What part of “get out of Efrat, then get out of Jerusalem, then get out of Tel Aviv” makes you believe that they will accept so much as a single Jew in the region who does not accept the strictures of dhimmitude? If you’re going to answer that, defend having Tel Aviv on the list.

If the PA is not intent on destroying Israel entirely, why does the PA mufti, appointed by Abbas, talk about the Muslims’ destiny of killing Jews?

If their goal is not Israel’s destruction, why was the PLO even founded? Remember, that was in 1964, before there ever was an occupation.

If their goal is not Israel’s destruction, why the denial of any connection between the Jews and the land of Israel?

If their goal is not Israel’s destruction, why does every PA map of Palestine extend from the river to the sea?

You’re welcome to your opinions. But all you’ve done so far, at least on the issue of Fatah’s intent, is assert that they are so. I have presented several items of evidence contrary. Any errors or counterevidence?

“And no, there was no “human shield” strategy going on.”

Then what was Mahmoud Abu Rahma stabbed for writing about?

From Khaled Abu Toameh’s latest column, “Abu Rahma’s “crime” is that he dared to publish an article strongly criticizing Palestinian armed groups as well as the Hamas and Palestinian Authority governments for human rights violations and the use of civilians as human shields in the war against Israel.”
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Also, I found the clip of the Palestinian official on Al Jazeera. You can find it at http://http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=450&fld_id=450&doc_id=5758 . It is of Fatah Central Committee member Abbas Zaki. Among the lines, “Israel will come to an end. If I say that I want to remove it from existence, this will be great, great, [but] it is hard. This is not a [stated] policy. You can’t say it to the world. You can say it to yourself.”

Scott: “What makes you think I support the settlements? So far, I have said nothing on the topic.”

I don’t mean to imply that you did, Scott.

Scott–When I first saw your post this morning, I went searching for all the links that show that Hamas and Abbas have recognized that Israel is here to say, but we ignore this because they won’t use the words “Jewish State” (a relatively new demand of ours, actually), but I stopped. The truth is, I’m not very good at this. The arguments you present are typical arguments. They are topic pointed. They represent common beliefs. And they focus on the barriers. Both sides do this. For every link you post of some hateful Islamist, there is one of our extremists being equally hateful. And both sides respond back with topic point answers. You can probably find mine on Peace Now’s website (I know! I know! Anti-zionists!). Of course, I think they’re pro-Zionists, dedicating their lives to Israel, but you say tomatoes, I say TomAtoes. It’s boring. Let’s focus on bridges.
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So I bring you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StniTO6GnEo&feature=player_embedded
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In this video, Aziz Abu Sarah, of 972 fame ;), talks to an american audience about bridges vs. barriers and his own journey putting hate behind him after Israel killed his brother. These are the bravest people among us: Combatants for Peace, Bereaved Families… They are my heroes.
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the talkbacks on the youtube video I’m sharing are hateful, saying that Aziz shouldn’t even call himself a Palestinian if he wants peace with Israel without justice (they claim). Instead of seeing these talkbacks as proof that we can’t have peace, I’d ask you to see them as a mirror: both sides say we can’t have peace because of Them; what They do. Let’s be visionary. If Aziz can do it, can’t we? For Israel’s sake. For humanity’s sake. And I don’t live in La-La land. I live in Israel. When I made Aliyah, there was a poster that said, “Live the Dream”. I said to the Aliyah man, “I’m 45. I live in Israel. I’m living the nightmare. Now, where do I sign.”

“I was thinking about Seeds of Peace, and how your niece is actually the poster child for why Palestinians boycott it (not saying this is right or wrong–just sharing): they say that if Israelis attend SOP and return and still serve in the IDF, especially in the territories, then obviously SOP isn’t focussed on issues of justice or serious content and is glossing over the real issues.”

So, the Palestinians you know believe that mandatory service in the IDF morally discredits any Israeli’s commitment to justice and peace. I can’t think of an example more emblematic of the Palestinian’s failure to negotiate a peace with Israel.

I guess that in general, it always seems to me that we want them to understand us, and they want us to understand them. We want recognition; they want recognition. They say: don’t say that to me; there’s no symmetry! Jews say to me: don’t say that to me; there’s no symmetry! But there is symmetry. We’re in this together. We create each other. We’re in a constant state of reaction to each other, and we need to take a big step back and aim not to be understood, but to understand. And so do they. At the present time, we are in a position of power; unjustly so. Therefore, we have more responsibility in this matter, at least for a first step. But in the end, everyone has to rise above herself. It’s overwhelming if we think of the big picture. But on a person-to-person level, there’s hope. I tend to think of it like a family, or marriage; everyone has to think of how to best love the other person; how to listen, rather than thinking of how to be heard and loved. The obstacle is fear. It’s less rational than we think, this fear. Theirs of us, and ours of them. Meanwhile, I can hardly tell Jewish Israelis from Arabs half the time. Crazy family, we are. All of us. Take care, everyone! I’m signing off, with respect. I know we all want the same thing. I don’t always love 972s choices in terms of where and how they shine their light, but I share their grief and urgent concern, learn a lot from their experiences on this land, and most importantly, I trust their hearts. Also, I trust yours.

“I didn’t understand until listening to Palestinians–friends I really trust–how they are really treated by the IDF, all the time. If you were raised under military occupation, and you saw your grandparents humiliated, gratuitously mistreated …”

I actually agree with you on that. The only restriction I would put on that is recognition of legitimate objectives of the IDF in the territories, such as preventing the movement of potential suicide bombers or other terrorists. Given that, how can those objectives be achieved at the minimum cost to the Palestinians, as measured by the criteria you listed and others that did not make your list? I would suspect that you would go further with general Israeli society with such an agenda than by saying that the answer to IDF abuse of the Palestinians is simply to cease IDF activity in the territories. One further consideration, who would you trust to carry out such a policy of least cost for legitimate objectives, participants of SOP or outpost-settlers?
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Also, does anyone else notice a parallel with Iraq? Legitimate security concerns addressed by treating the entire population like the enemy with the result that those who weren’t beforehand became as a result. Loose rules of engagement. Indiscriminate roundups. The main difference is that in Iraq, there were AOs that went against that pattern and a subsequent surge that made the ROE in the exceptions the rule for the entire theater of operations.

I have read Tablet since it began, and recognized its apparent purpose as undermining Israel’s position in the world.
The idea that people are strengthening Israel
by vilifying it under any and all circumstances is so ludicrous as to delegitimize the political Left forever. The Left has squandered its moral stature on
anti-Zionism, while the Pals have squandered theirmoral on inter-Arab feuds. If the Left
sees its task as one of convincing the majority to offer its throat to a wolf, it won’t get very far. The Jewish Left has lots of talent, but seems to have no insight at all into the futility of dumping concessions on the Pals. Hint:
based on recent events, the Israeli Left
is deservedly marginal, andhas limited capacity to examine itsaelf or Arab intelocutors. Editor, do you really think your readership is that unsophisticated?

Interesting exchange that seems to have brought back the dead in the case of Jacob Arnon.

Scott, you are right, but what you don’t mention is the presence in the story of the settlers. This distances Israel’s occupation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank from the Iraq parallel. (Long-term government policy and a two-tier Israeli legal infrastructure are to blame for their presence there, not the settlers themselves).

The truth is that story and counter-story, myth and counter-myth are no longer the issue. +972 magazine tells you about things you do not necessarily see in the English language press, neither yours nor ours. The reason you do not see them is because they hurt not only the victim, we expect that, but also the perpetrator. And the perpetrator happens to be us if we’re Israeli and you if you happen to be Jewish Israel-firsters. Jeffrey, you find it disappointing; the best way to improve its balance is to add your voice.

For anyone who really wants to know, next time you go to Israel and come up to Jerusalem, walk, by yourself, not with a group that will cloud your judgment, just a little bit further east than your hotel – if you happen to be staying at The Olive Tree, Jerusalem Grand Court or Leonardo hotels each of which looks out over the Umm Haroun compound, it’s exactly two and a half steps away – and visit Sheikh Jarrah. You will be able to witness for yourself both sides of the story, both the proponents of the rise and rise of a hitherto little-known Jewish shrine called Shimon Hatzadik and the plight of the Al Kurd family, just as one example, which has to share its home and yard with Kahanist settlers. Speak to both. If you’re feeling adventurous, there are other walks you could take and other people you could see, but this little excursion alone is sufficient to show you why +972 is there. Thanks to efforts like theirs, we won’t credibly be able to defend ourselves by saying “lo yadanu” (we didn’t know) in years to come.

Jojo–as an Israeli, you are not alone in feeling as you do, not by a longshot, and I wasn’t living here during the 2nd Intifada, nor did I grow up here, so I have not walked where you have walked. I think it is, in fact, because so many Israelis feel as you do that 972 is targeting the diaspora to pressure Israel out of the occupation. Rest assured, though: I am not alone, nor am I the most extreme left winger out there by any stretch of the imagination. I have only a few questions for you, and they are utterly sincere (not antagonistic): Have you been to the Palestinian Territories recently (or ever)? And: do you know any Palestinians? If you do know Palestinians, do you know them well enough to have heard their stories? Have you asked? If not, is it not possible that there’s a lot you don’t know, even though you’re Israeli and have probably served in the IDF, about what their lives are like under Occupation? I’ll only add that I sympathize plenty with Israel on plenty of things, and I moved here out of a Jewishly-connected love for the Negev–I just don’t post about that, because there’s a word limit here, and my priority is awakening us (myself included, daily) to what we don’t already know, outside our own narrative, no matter how true some of it is. I believe in simultaneous truths. The arguments that people bring in here are very, very old and stale; they have little to do with what’s happening on the ground today, outside the comfort of our own bubbles.
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I actually wrote this before reading sh’s comment inviting people to Sheik Jarrah. What a beautifully put, poignant invitation. One of my leftist activist friends involved in that movement is a shomeret shabbat sabra who loves Israel deeply. Try not to label so much, Jojo; nothing, no one, is so simple.
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Jeffrey, I, too, would be grateful to see you on 972′s threads. I learn a lot there, from the commenters as well as the writers.

Beautiful. On a thread where “Jacob Arnon” doesn’t tell me that he isn’t, in fact, the holocaust survivor I believe he is–that he is commenting under the deceased survivor/zionist leader’s name–when I offer him a heartfelt apology; and “Dude” is such a notorious hasbarist that he chooses that name rather over his own, I’m being given a lecture on “reality”. Maybe I should have taken @Jules more seriously when he referenced Rabin’s assassin in relation to the lot of you.
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Scott, Jeffrey, Phillip, Adam–you’re welcome over on 972. So far, only Klang of googling “go back to Michigan” fame has shown up, but I trust he’ll do something to get kicked off eventually; unlike Tablet (it seems), 972 monitors.

Dude–read 972′s comment policy and compare them to the deleted posts (I know, hard to do ;), but I saw lots of them before they were deleted. They always get warnings before being banned from the site-it’s all for good reasons having nothing to do with their politics, and they’ve also deleted Palestinians and Palestinian sympathizers for the same reasons. And, there are some right wingers, including from settlements, who’ve been commenting actively there for nearly a year. There’s a regular cast of characters, and they’re from all walks.
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p.s. JoJo–many of the writers there are Israeli-born. You might be interested to read them. Just for anthropological reasons ;).

Dude–I think we actually found some common ground, in that I find it sad that in Israel, the reaction to the religious right–and their influence over law and policy for all Israelis–is to disengage from Judaism. There’s something profound about a country founded on land that’s holy to Jews that has turned so many Jewish citizens off from that sense of holiness. Then again, my secular Israeli friends know the Torah better than most American Jews, can say the full Kiddush by heart if I ask them to at a shabbat dinner, clean for Pesach; all that is simply cultural, here. For an American Jew, even just hearing everyone say Shabbat Shalom on yom sheshi is an amazing thing at first.
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Listen–of course there is serious anti-semitism and also anti-Jewish Propaganda, and of course this exists in the Arab world (and Iran, and elsewhere). And of course there are serious security threats to Israel. I’m pretty darn sure that every 972 writer would agree; these are points of fact. It is therefore very easy for us to stay stuck in our position of victimhood and righteousness at the expense of, dare I say our soul. Israel is losing her soul. We must end this occupation. We must stop sleepwalking. While perhaps you are right in saying that it would be good for secular Israelis to ponder Judaism, it can equally be said that it would be good for many religious Israelis to ponder holiness, and what was, and is, truly being asked of us upon entering this sacred land. Not according to the rabbis. We’ve forgotten the Book.

well, I feel the way about the Post (which my politically moderate Sabra friends find to be pure propaganda), and that particular watchdog org, and the undemocratic idea of making it illegal to donate to certain leftist NGO’s, that you do about 972. As for some of the quotations in that piece by 972 writers (and some of those quoted aren’t even staff writers), I also don’t agree with everything they say, nor does each writer agree with what other writers say. for example, I don’t think direct comparisons between different injustices (the separate roads in the west bank, south africa’s apartheid) work exactly, and I think they usually hurt important arguments. That’s not a reason to find the magazine offensive if, like me, you find those separate roads offensive.

NGO Monitor, the watchdog org from the piece Dude posts that is blacklisting 972 Mag from donations, has done the same to every organization of brave Israelis and Palestinians working together peacefully for justice, including Combatants for Peace, the organization Aziz Abu Sarah describes in his video I posted on this thread. NGO Monitor is against Rabbis for Human Rights; apparently, they prefer rabbis for spitting on 8 year old immodestly dressed Jewish girls and rabbis for cutting down West Bank olive trees. They are also against Breaking The Silence, in which IDF soldiers voluntarily share the actions they took part in as participants in what many American Jews refer to as “the most moral army in the world”; clearly, NGO Monitor prefers silence. Even if your politics are not aligned with these organizations, consider that attacking democracy and free press affects the whole.

And Ayla, I’m sorry you think that something justifies lobbing rockets indiscriminately, and not in a time of war, at Israeli civilians, but actually, nothing justifies these acts. And they are almost always launched without any action or provocation by Israel to which they can claim they are responding. And even if they consider an attack on one or a group of their fighters to be a cause for attack, then why are they attacking civilian targets and not military targets?

Former 972 reader (you sound like RichardNYC, who was removed from commenting there): if you read what I wrote as saying that I justify lobbying rockets indiscriminately (or, frankly, even discriminately), then you’re not a very good reader, which would explain a lot…
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972 writers are good at discerning dissenting opinions from Hasbara. there is no left wing equivalent of hasbara: people, often paid, very organized, who comment on left or left leaning news sites with the purpose of countering what is said and spreading their Pro-Israel word.
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It’s a shame that American readers believe there are two Israeli newspapers: left, Haaretz; right, Jerusalem post. In fact, the Jerusalem Post writes exclusively for a diaspora (or american immigrant to israel) audience, as there is no hebrew language (so, Israeli) equivalent.. Haaretz, on the other hand, is an Israeli paper. The biggest difference between Haaretz in Hebrew and in English is the op eds; the news is the same. I understand that if you are right-leaning and you don’t read hebrew, you have no other options, but it’s important to know that you are reading something unlike anything Sabras read. 972 has a higher percentage of sabra readers :).
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Former Reader–you are very misinformed about Hamas and Iran, but I’m not taking that on. I learn more every day; I’m no expert, and it’s all very confusing (shiites, sunnis, arab world, Iran, Hezbollah…). I know just enough to know that you are very wrong, and Goldman knows more than both of us combined.
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Robert–I’m so tired of people getting upset about our focussing on Israel’s injustices by pointing out other, greater injustices in the world. As Jews, and Israelis, we are focussing on the injustices committed in our name, and in the name of our holiness. That someone else is doing it too, and worse, makes no difference. We are fighting for an Israel we can believe in, rather than jumping ship.
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truly signing off now. Take care, all (also truly).

Regarding Lisa Goldman, Ayla, she was proven wrong by me – with links provided and always politely, though firmly – a number of times. It wasn’t an accident I was blocked by her and then from the entire website. You can continue to blame others, but you might actually think about the implications of a group of journalists opening a publication and ensuring that people who know their stuff are consistently banned from the site.

Now you actually write the following, “972 writers are good at discerning dissenting opinions from Hasbara. there is no left wing equivalent of hasbara: people, often paid, very organized, who comment on left or left leaning news sites with the purpose of countering what is said and spreading their Pro-Israel word.”

I’m not paid and never was. I think the term “hasbara” is a joke. Should I call what 972 and its ilk do “Paliganda?” Because that’s what it is, and unlike me, they are paid to publish their paliganda.

There are groups, like CAMERA, that have loyal followers, but they don’t go to 972. The people who tend to comment on 972 to counter the authors’ anti-Israel bias tend to be individuals like myself who know the conflict and its history well and are astounded by the idea that this group is actually trying to foist their deeply biased view of Israel on unsuspecting non-Israelis (why else publish in English?). By going on to their site and debating them (politely, with links and always careful to ensure my information is correct), I am offering a different point of view, not hasbara. Actually, I’m the individual here and they are the collective with the organized goals who are ensuring that my voice isn’t heard at all. Slowly, but surely, by eliminating reasoned debate by banning or labeling everything they disagree with “hasbara,” they’ve turned their site into an orgy of Israel-hatred. Sure, they claim to want to save Israel, but why would anybody want to save the country as it is perceived by them?

WHat makes you think that the 972 Magazine is anything other than just one more far-leftist treasonous web group pf leftist Jewish anti-Semites?

If that isn’t clear enough for you, here is Egypt’s foreign minister. I’m sure Lisa Goldman and you know more that he does, but just in case you don’t, here is his take on Iran and proxies:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2009/01/28/us-egypt-arabs-idUKTRE50R4IL20090128

Egypt aired its grievances against Iran, the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas and the Lebanese Shi’ite group Hezbollah, saying they worked together in the fighting over Gaza to provoke conflict in the Middle East.

“(They tried) to turn the region to confrontation in the interest of Iran, which is trying to use its cards to escape Western pressure … on the nuclear file,” Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said in an interview with Orbit satellite channel broadcast Wednesday.”

Let me know if you still feel any of this is unclear.

I am a prominant American anti-zionist, and I rely on 972 for headlines that the ziopress doesnt wish to publicize. I think the only solution will happen when zionists exercise their right of return so the Palestinians can exercise theirs. It is only a matter of time until Ayla Adlers well honed sense of morality will come into conflict with the fact that she is currently on stolen land, and she will need to make the same choice that Lisa Goldman did

p.s. former reader, saying that people are resisting occupation is not the same as justifying rocket fire. Again: something between black and white, people. Palestinians are resisting occupation, and I am against violence, even though we make their peaceful protest nearly impossible by jailing people right and left, killing them (yes–killing people who are protesting peacefully; see Nabi Saleh just last month for one example), intimidating them, using all kinds of gas that keeps me and others–Israeli and Palestinian–from joining them… Even though we pay no attention to their peaceful protests, and do pay attention to their violence, I am adamantly against all violent forms of resistance. The thing is, you all hear things in boxes and categories in which you understand them, so you just put my comments into whichever box or category you feel they belong. There’s a whole world of complexity out there within which we have no choice but to question our own beliefs and views. Stay in your worlds–much more comfortable. Mark my words: not returning to this thread.

How can Zionist ideals have any appeal to Western liberal thought? When you put aside the “Jewish Homeland” thing, Zionism is a narrow exclusivist ideology and Israeli politics reflects that. The Arab world is lumbering, slowly, clumsily, towards democracy and Israel is regressing into a military theocracy paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.

(…continuation)

These historic and ethical rights were then translated into legal right. It was first the San Remo Conference, 1920, that designated “Palestine” – the name of a territory, not a nationality or a state, mind you!! – to be “the national home for the Jewish people”. This language, taken directly out of the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was adopted by the League of Nations, 1922, which partitioned “Palestine”, handing over 77% of it to the Arabs who subsequently renamed their part Jordan, and the rest, 23% of it, between the Jordan River to the Med. Sea, to the Jews, who subsequently re-named their part Israel. This legal process was completed when the United Nations, in 1945, incorporated the League of Nations decisions of 1922 into its Charter, Article 80, as an irrevocable act.

Hence, Israel, being the independent “national home for the Jewish people”, i.e. the nation-state of the Jewish people, is here by right: historic, ethical and legal; having been proclaimed as such on 14 May 1948.

Singling out the nation-state of the Jewish people, and therefore, by extension, the people whose nation-state Israel is, is an act of racism, anti-Jewish racism. And, calling for its elimination under such slogans as “one state”, “no state”, etc. amounts to a double insult of not only singling out a people, the Jewish people, but implicitly denying this people’s very first human right, the right to live and to defend one’s life; and the ability to apply this denial of right to Jews, for no other reason but for the fact that the members of the Jewish people are Jews.

Regardless of the amount and colors of feathers used by the BDS members to veil, their words and actions amount to racism, anti-Jewish racism at that!!

(end)

fuck you stupid idiots