Regards,
Herbata.

A wonderfully thought out article. You have my respect. But there’s something I think
you left unsaid. If Israel continues in the unjust path it has chosen it will fall some time
in the later part of this century. Actually as a “Lamp Unto Nations”, it has fallen already.

and the path is clear for israel to meet its most important goal, not heaven forbid security for its citizens based on a durable peace settlement and changes in policies by hamas and hezbollah, not by elimination of the iranian nuclear threat but

becoming the kind of (non zionist) place liberal american jews want it to be. (as long as the hotels are as nice as the W hotel in soho)

“But, God willing, when the occupation ends, Israel can and will become popular again.
But, for most of us, we are liberal American Jews and that is exactly what we want to be.”

the fact that the people in israel might not think “zionism is done any none or that eliminating the occupation might just possibly have something to do with the positions of their counterparties….not to worry mr rosenberg has the answer.

mr. rosenberg I recall awhile ago you writing of the “food police” in Israel want the directions to the pork sausage store right outside the tachana merkazit in TA Want police restricting consumption of alcohol? visit gaza

Hit the library my friend try One State Two states by Benny Morris, writings by Dennis Ross, David Markovsky, Aaron David Miller, even Rashid Khalidi among others None of these people are part of the intra tribal debate you write about they are participant observers with real knowledge. Forget about the intra jewish community debate learn how to do research on political issues

But thanks, Mr. Luban – now I know what kind of dinner-table arguements
I will be getting from liberal friends and relatives on my next visit to
America. I can close the computer and prepare for the next demonstration in Sheikh Jarrah, fighting for a more just and democratic Israel. And faced with the Hamas who want to set up an Islamic state
on all the territory here (including my Jerusalem home, well within the Green line) aided by the deligimation and demonization of Israel by
some of the Western media and many leftists, I will also stand up for the right of Israel to exist.

So please, Mr Luban – America has lots of problems – the economy,
2 wars, oil spill – please forget about this tiny country in the
Mediterranean.

I’m on the fence about zionism. The fact is, the history of the world is a history of people conquering others and deciding what leaders and government they will have. In that context, Israel certainly has a right to exist. On the other hand, it daily commits the sort of atrocities which bely that it had a democratic base — just as the US does. I questioned when I was 11 or so why Israel should be more admired and defended than the states around it (this was way before I read about Israel anywhere but his own newspaper). He thought for a minute, and then said, “Well, Israel’s a democracy. I think we need to support democracies before undemocratic governments.”

That kept me not questioning for awhile, but as I grew older, I kept reading about terrible things Israel was doing. And every year I’ve read more atrocities — never once in a mainstream newspaper. G-d bless the internet.

Second, I wonder why it is that so many of the pro-Likud commenters seem unable to argue without immediatly resorting to namecalling and rudeness? I started reading the Jerusalem Post after Cast Lead, and its comment-section makes white-power hate sites look tame by comparision. Up until three weeks ago, they had a link to Pamela Geller who has openly declared that she sees palestinians as sub-human. Where is the articles on that subculture of hate?

The trouble is that you propose moral relativism and a false victimhood of a superbly-armed bully.

The problem is very simple, but you do not want to face the bitter truth: Civilization is based on the rule of law which must be applied universally.
The “treat of existence” rationalizes Inquisition and Stalin’s troyka alike (and Nazis’ longing for the resources of Savic states). And do not forget that you assume that some superhuman beings (Israelis in your case) are entitled, and able, to take the only right decision, as compared to the accountability demanded by the rule of law.

Of course it is acceptable to criticize Israel. Nobody does it better than Israelis themselves. They have a dysfunctional political system that gives disproportionate power to extremists. They have a growing gap between rich and poor. Religious life is dominated by the ultra-Orthodox, to the detriment of more liberal denominations. The occupation and the building of settlements have been huge and costly failures. What’s the big deal about saying all this?

The trouble is that Israel faces serious threats to its existence, and it is on this issue that liberals (and even more so, those further left) insist on tap-dancing, double standards, hand-wringing, making nice…all of which are exercises in fantasy. It doesn’t matter whether Israel’s policy towards the Palestinians is just or unjust, there is no hope of peace unless and until the Palestinians can field a leadership capable of arriving at – and enforcing – their side of the bargain. When you have one side (Hamas) openly declaring, in writing, that 100% of Israel is an Islamic waqf and that peace conferences are a waste of time (never mind blaming the Jews for eveything from the French revolution to World War II) and another side (Fatah) alternating between robbing its own people and talking out of both sides of the mouth, it is fatuous in the extreme to start worrying about the excesses of Avigdor Lieberman.

Even if Israel were to magically transorm itself to a state that would meet this author’s standards, with whom are they expected to sign a deal? All the parsing and mincing and tut-tutting in the world cannot make that essential issue go away.

The author doesn’t need to be so squeamish. He can criticize Israel to his heart’s content. Some of his ideas might help make it a better place. But as for peace with the Palestinians, let’s get real. Until they figure out how to get out of their own way, nothing will happen. It’s really that simple.

To its inhabitants.

We know you never heard in the Ziobubble about the end of colonialism. Wake-up calls are painful especially when they are over a century old; that’s why I wish you to keep your moronic bliss until death.

Right again! You also nicely expose the fact that Zionism has nothing to do with Jewishness in any way or wise, but only with the parochial “national” cultural aspirations of the Ostyiddisch. Sefardis and Mizrahis and Ethiopians and Bukharis and all the other have absolutely nothing in common **except religious and ritual things**. No common language, no common culture, no common nothing.

Except for a shared ugly racism in all groups against the respectively darker one, in addition to that against the owners of the land, as demonstrated by the move into occupied Palestine.

What’s that with “liberal” or illiberal Zionism?

Zionism itself is a request for a Jewish state, i.e. a racially determined state with people born out of a “Jewish” woman the only “real” citizens, necessarily a state on other people’s land*. What does that make it? Something that is different from Nazism only in degree (up to now). It cannot be “liberal”. It cannot be accepted by civilized society. Let’s stop the intellectual masturbation. Either you commit to racial supremacism or you oppose it, and opposing it cannot be done halfways.

* One could imagine restricting first-class citizenship to the religious and having a full-blown theocracy (and expel all the atheists and other non-strictly-orthodox). That would be a way to avoid being in the same category as the Nazis. It would place the state in the same class as Saudi Arabia. Interested?

Norman Podhoretz was right, most Jews in America aren’t Jews, their religion is liberalism.

The problem with the flotilla incident is not really that Israeli soldiers shot the protesters. I think Israel mishandled all of this, but, of course, problems like this come up all of the time. Protesters protest; police or soldiers mess up and kill protesters. That shouldn’t happen, but many things that shouldn’t happen do happen.

The occupation is a serious problem, but, of course, it’s a complicated problem. I think Israel could solve the problem if Israelis were better able to see the people in Gaza as human beings, but, of course, there is plenty of PTSD to go around.

The real problem is that Israeli leaders and groups like Women in Green have responded with self-righteous, hectoring, arrogant statements, press releases, etc. that sound more as if they had come from propagandists in Iran or the old Soviet Union than from people who’ve read the Book of Jonah.

Even if some of the people killed attacked soldiers with clubs, even if some had truly evil motives, the fact is that Israelis — my brothers and sisters — killed people who were on what most, maybe all, of them thought was a peaceful humanitarian mission. Israelis should be showing humility, sorrow and contrition, and, at this point, expressing any excuses for what happened in dry, just-the-facts incident reports. But, instead, they’re trying to bluster their way through this and make it sound as if the people who are upset about what happened are the bad guys.

If Israel is really permanently turning into an intentionally nationalist Jewish version of Iran, that’s just not a good thing. That’s as bad as if we elected David Duke to be president of the United States.

If Israelis freely choose to be a country that takes offense when people get mad at it for shooting protesters, then, arggh. Arggh.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/15268/

I think as you found its more important to see things from a liberal or humanist point of view. seen this way, I/P is isnt complicated.

a bunch of colnialist type people took someone elses land and now the natives are fighting back.

israelis will have to make the difficult sacrfifices to make right with the natives.

americans shouldnt try to pro-long the inevitable. one state. equal rights. give up this zionist idea. move into the future.

We’re around I swear. We may not be as loud or write as many articles about our conflictions, but see J-Street, see Americans for Peace Now.

I appreciated Ingall’s article last and this week, but I would hate to see this place turn into Israel-criticism-central. I have enough of that when I’m on other sites.

The choice between liberalism and Zionism is a false one. There’s nothing wrong with supporting self-determination. And like Ingall said, Israel exists, you can’t un-exist it. Look around that region, not like Jews are so welcome in surrounding countries.

Anyone who believes in the One State solution is a moron. Would you combine Hungary and Romania into one country because there is a Hungarian minority in Romania and because part of present-day Romania once belonged to Hungary? No, because it’s a recipe for ludicrousness.

If you believe there should be a Jewish state and an Arab state, then that pretty much makes you a Zionist of one sort or another. Or, you just don’t give a shit either way. But in that case, why are you writing for a Jew-oriented site?