I’m in agreement with you to a point. The Palestinians aren’t really held to account for their behavior, whether lobbing missiles at Israeli schools, hijacking airplanes, or rejecting peace offers. But that doesn’t obviate the need to force them to put up or shut up, once in a while. Inveterate critics of Israel eventually find their way back to finding it culpable for everything that happens to Arabs, but open displays of Palestinian recalcitrance shuts them up for a years.

http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2013/1/29/the_gatekeepers_in_new_film_ex

Bernie, I understand that you couldn’t agree less with what I am saying and that was to be predicted because like all cheap propagandists, you continue to make false and unsupported assertions while completely evading answering any of my questions.

Palestine was considered occupied by the Ottoman Empire for the same reason it could be considered occupied by invading Arabs in the 7th century: because the invaders (and colonizers in the case of the Arabs) were not indigenous to the territory. The Palestinian Arabs are indigenous to ARABia, Bernie, notwithstanding your fatuous attempts to claim otherwise based on how they are ostracized and mistreated by their brethren in countries like Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, who are doing so for their own cynical reasons: to exploit those Arabs whose ancestors may have spent two years in Palestine as a political weapon and festering sore against the Jews.

The Palestinian Arabs have themselves many times during the course of their war to evict the Jews from the region, frankly acknowledged that they are NOT a people or even nation separate and distinct from the Arabs of Egypt or Syria or Jordan (which itself is 70% Palestinian Arab by population even within the narrow definition of “people” you are pushing).

In a newspaper interview in 1977 for example, PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein stated:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against
the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no
difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

There are many similar quotes from other high-ranking Palestinian officials if you care to look.

Americans have no legal or historical claim to Haiti, as do the Jews to the land of Israel, Judea and Samaria so your argument there is simply a straw man.

Now, will you address my very relevant questions regarding the practical realities of the Jews being coerced to surrender another 15% of historic Palestine to the millions of Arabs who would like to declare sovereignty there so as to ultimately extirpate a Jewish national presence?

Cynthia, i thought i did address your points. But let me try again.

1) You state, somehow, that the historic Arab conquest and the Ottoman Empire are not colonial efforts or ‘occupations’ in the PROPER sense of the term? I don’t want to misinterpret what you are saying – but is that it? We know from what little census records in 1910 that the arabs had been BY FAR the predominant majority in the region. We also know that after Basel/Hertzel/1900 conferences – the Jews from Northern Europe attempted to move, in hordes, to the region to create a state that might allow them protection from the historic and periodic pogroms/persecutions evidenced from the prior 1000yrs of the Crusades onwards. But, i think that by grouping the inhabitants of the area together – you are (unwittingly) allowing more then just a semantic error to disenfranchise these Palestinian arabs.

Cynthia, there is ample evidence to show that these Palestinian arabs since WW1 attempted to create their own state. And the British/French had promised them one. In 1919, they reneged on the promised (with the Russian ally) and disallowed a Pal state – instead opting for colonial rule. They divided up the region for themselves. And, we know, later were kicked out. But the important point i want to stress is that the Pal., Arabs petitioned for a STATE Cynthia. Even after 1948 they wanted a state. As well as post 1967. There is a fundamental disagreement there. I believe you are removing these specific people as a SPECIFIC people from history denying them identify and attempting to place them in Jordan or some general Arab state. The evidence i have read does not support that. Benny Morris has documented that 700k of the Palestinian arabs were removed from their homes with no restitution.

One other thing – you mention some Palestinian or other arabs that support your view. But one can conjure up quotes from BenGurion, etc that evidence the acquisitive and duplicitous nature of the Israeli project. I would just refer you to Jabotinksy who really was the forerunner and intellectual leader of the movement that still exists today. He, (and others like Dayan, Barak) mentioned that if they were the Palestinian arabs they would respond the same way to the aggression.

What you miss from the perception of looking at history only in terms of the victor, Israel – is that these people had always petitioned for nation status. And this is important. It was denied to them by the Brits/French/Allies —– and instead —– they watched as Northern European immigrants (Westerners!!!!) WERE given nation status in their own part of the world. What a calamity. Immigrants come to the land — part of Western culture — and co-opt land into a nation state —– a state that is Jewish and whereby, the indigenous are secondary citiziens. Who would not have took up arms if it happened to us Cynthia…..

Cynthia, i submit to you that your using Muhseins statement above as a definitive event in history or directive – only, and i mean this with no offense – points to your bias. Avi Shlaim,Flapan, Pappe, Benny Morris and others have all documented the OFFENSE of attempting to remove the Palestinians, as a distinct people, from history. It doesn’t work. Its only fair you consider other sources then just one quote. And these are Israeli scholars! I see you may not have looked at the Shin Bet leaders that i referred to in the other post. All 6 living Shin Bet leaders all believe that the Israeli settlement project is harming Israel. One even parallels it to Nazi Germany……These are the leaders of SHIN BET mind you…..they have, i repeat, real standing in Israels history.

Just to make it clear. I believe you are saying that the basis of the Jewish claim for the area is that of the UN vote to partition the land in 1948 – is that correct? Surely, you are not cashing in a land claim from 2500years ago? So, i assume that is correct.

I just want to say that is was the Europeans, that had mistreated the Jew historically. It was the Crusading English that thru Jews into the river. It was the Spanish that impaled them. It was the Poles/Cossacks that popromized them. It was the Germans (and French assist) that pushed them into ovens. Historically, back to the Moors that protected the Jews, the Jews of the middle east were not, by and large, subjected to persectuion by any scale that compared to the Europeans. But the subject is – what ENTITLED THE UN voters to partition middle east land and carve out a state of a bunch of immigrants from northern europe?

I will just say this once again to you Cynthia. Looking at the entire unconsionable act from the standpoint of the arabs – this was an injustice of monumental proportions. THEY were not allowed a nation state in Palestine – but Westerners (recall this is from the arab mindset) poplulated their area with a Westernized group of people who gave secondary status to the arabs that had lived there for years. I think you and others miss this historical point – its important. Which is why i don’t think this, perhaps insolvable problem, will ever be solved till 1948 is re-visited.

I do think that the arabs made mistakes. No question. In BERUIT TO JERUSALEM — Friedman goes to lengths saying how Arafat, rightfully, should have told his people that the Israeli project was unstoppable and settled for an injustice of a small state….and i think he was unquestioinably right…. but today is ANOTHER matter all together.

Listen to the SHIN BET leaders discuss todays predicament. They are correct. The settlement program is illegal. It is deterring any any any any ANY sort of agreement., And that agreement between the 2 parties is necessary before any wound heal – which will take generations. Even if you believe that there are no Palestinian arabs – in order for there to be peace – a settlement has to be made. Look at the land of the W. Bank. Its dotted with tons of settlements. There are now 500k Jews there.

To stand for any sane proposal for peace one will have to affirm the Saudi Initiative, Geneva Initiative. They negotiators really had it down at TABA, Egypt prior to the Intifada. But the expansionists and extremists got in the way. We all know that the W. Bank, Gaza with E. Jerusalem as the capitol of a new Palestinian state will eventually OCCUR ——- that is the only sane proposal now. To disagree is only to confer upon both these unfortunate peoples years and years and years of more conflict Cynthia……