Plan to Delegitimize Israel Unfolding

Netanyahu plans to fiddle.

And dribble and quibble.

How is Palestine’s request to be recognised as a country a move to deligitimize Israel? They are asking for the very same thing that Israel was granted by the UN over 60 years ago. They aren’t asking to take over Israel, they are asking to recognised as a sovereign entity in the tiny territory they have left. And asking Israel to adhere to international law and remove settlements that were constructed on land under military occupation really isn’t too much, is it? When will Israel stop deligitimizing Palestine?? Oh but that’s right, the Arabs want to drive the Jews into the sea, while the facts on the ground actually point to the the complete opposite!! It’s the Palestinians who are being squeezed out of their own land until nothing is left apart from isolated clusters, at which point Israel will have no choice but to annex the whole darn thing, which it is already doing by de facto with the increasing construction of settlements.

If it is true that Israel has established an apartheid regime in the West Bank (not Israel proper), and is collectively punishing 2.5 million Gazans, then those policies should be “de-legitimized.” How can you criticize the policies without criticizing the policy-maker?

Heads up, my Zio-American friends, American will not support apartheid and subjugation of the Palestinians forever.

And BTW, any rational Israeli fully supports channeling the Palestinian national movement into empty UN resolutions. Would you prefer a return to the intifada years?

The real threat is that Abbas will be viewed as a feckless Israeli puppet, and the 4 million Palestinians who live under a grinding, brutal occupation (five unarmed Palestinians including a 12 year old boy and a 22-year-old woman, shot to death since the Hamas cease-fire, fyi not a single rocket out of Gaza since the ceasefire), will decide enough is enough.

Why should there be a 22nd Arab-Islamic state established in the Jewish heartland? What would be the legal or moral basis? Jordan has withdrawn it’s claim to Judea and Samaria. It is thus a stateless territory with Israel having the best legal, historic and de facto claim.

Why should there be a 22nd Arab-Islamic state established in the Jewish heartland? What would be the legal or moral basis? Jordan has withdrawn it’s claim to Judea and Samaria. It is thus a stateless territory with Israel having the best legal, historic and de facto claim.

Not a very helpful comment. What would you suggest he do?

“They aren’t asking to take over Israel”

Actually, if you pay attention to what they write in Arabic, what they teach their children, what they proclaim in rallys, that’s EXACTLY what they want. Even their logo reflects Palestine as all of Israel. And if the PA isn’t radical enough, consider that they want to align with Hamas, whose ONLY reason for existing is to eradicate Israel (and presumably, Jews).

Jews want to drive Arabs into the sea? I seem to remember Israel leaving Gaza, in the hope that it would lead to a two state solution. I seem to remember Arafat and Abbas both being offered upwards of 95% of their demand, and that offer being met NOT with negotiation but with refusal (and in Arafat’s case, an Intifada).

How willing and eager people are to see the worst in Israel, but refuse to see it in the Arabs.

But yes, technically you’re right. they’re not “asking” to take over Israel. Per se.

I’m not a Zionist and I don’t favor a mandate of a stupidly ceaseless Israeli manifest destiny. These goddamn settlements have got to stop.

Sure. He can renew the offers advanced by his predecessors in a very public way, in a forum that will allow him to broadcast his overture to a world audience. Doing it at the UN would be a perfect forum to show up the hypocrisy there.

Broadly, he would sketch out the two-state solution on the condition that the Arabs in Palestine recognize Israel’s essentially Jewish character, (a trait no different in its political implications than the essentially and officially Arab character of its neighbors), and on the condition that the Palestinians renounce violence against Israel. He could insist on some kind of assurance that missiles lobbed at Israel would stop, and demand that in the event that they didn’t, Israel would exercise an internationally-approved right to retaliate.

The ball would then be entirely in the Palestinians’ court, and pressure would shift to them to accept and accommodate Israel’s rather modest demands, which amount to a right to territorial integrity and to self-defense. If they failed to do so, it would be in front of the audience of nations, and for the third time in about a decade. If they accepted, then preparation for sovereignty could begin, and Israel would have leverage in requiring compliance, particularly with respect to non-aggression. The Palestinians have been ducking this, but they would be pinned to the wall if Netanyahu simply called them on their hypocrisy. But he doesn’t.

Unfortunately, Netanyahu is opposed to a Palestinian state. That is just abundantly clear, and so long as it remains the case, Israel will continue to become more and more of a pariah in the world, depending increasingly for its welfare on a country, the U.S., whose leader Netanyahu seems to relish tweaking with his intransigence.

But there is already a nation there with a legitimate claim to the land, it is called Israel.

Not really. They captured the land in a war. You can’t do that.

The reason for the Palestinian state is that the Palestinian arabs have inhabited the area since the 7th century. It IS there land . Recall that the Jews migrated to form a nation there in the early 1900′s…..whatever else wants to make of this situation – the Palestininan arabs should’nt be termed strangers in their own land….it is ahistorical and unfair….

Michael, only 17 people, and most of them are on the planet Neptune believe what you are saying. No one in the world accepts the occupied land being annexed as Israeli. Even the USA doesn’t recognize it. I am not sure that one nation in the entire world recognizes so monumental an illegal seizure that the Israelis are now doing…and have been since 67…….

The facts on the ground —7000 rockets fired into Israel—Murdering Israelis in Israel—Murdering Israelis outside of Israel.—Palis have shown a wonton disregard for human life—Do you remember when Arafat entered the UN Buildings carrying a revolver? Peaceful hey.—They refused the UN Mandate in 1948 which was a fair and equitable two state solution.—Read your history.—-The Palis and their minions wish to murder all Israelis, Jews and Christians.—The Palis are aligned with all the terrorist organizations that hate Jews, Israelis, Americans and Christians and the list goes on. The twin towers, Bombings in Africa, England, France, Murder of 4 Americans recently—
Gaza was part of Egypt, when Israel wanted to return it back to Egypt, Egypt refused to take Gaza back. The West Bank was occupied by Jordan from 1947 till 1967. Why didn’t the Palis tell Jordan that they wanted that area before 1967? Why didn’t the Palis do the same with Egypt for Gaza?

The mandatory teaching of children to hate Jews is intolerable. When Golda Meir said, there will be peace when the Arabs and Palis start to love their children more than they hate Jews.

Gaza was a part of of Egypt and not the Palis. Egypt refused to take it back after losing the 6 day war. West Bank was occupied by Jordan in 1948. The 2 state mandate by the UN was refused by Palis and 6 Arab countries in 1948. The Palis were under occupation on the West Bank since 1948. It also has been proven for the world to see, that the dead rise from the stretcher and walk away after the reporters leave.

Bernie, you don’t know what the f*ck you’re talking about. Or worse, you know exactly what you are talking about and you fully understand what bullshit-inspired propaganda it is.

Judea and Samaria are not “occupied” land. There is not and has never been a recognized sovereign nation there — other than ancient Israel. In modern terms, there can be no “occupation” under the Geneva conventions because no high contracting party has ever held legal title to the territory.

If the “Palestinian Arabs” have inhabited the area since the 7th century (drawn there initially from the Arab peninsula as invaders and colonizers and subsequently as economic opportunists), the Palestinian Jews inhabited the area centuries before them. And the Israelite Jews even earlier. You can’t have it both ways when you talk about aboriginal claims and occupation.

Now, let’s put the quasi-legal arguments to one side for a moment and consider the practical realities. The Arabs control 99.9% of the Middle East. They have 21 countries — 22 if you count Gaza — three of which were created at the same time and by the same European powers as the one Jewish state. The 800,000 Jews living in Arab countries at the time of Israel’s creation were subject to rape, murder and confiscation of all of their property. The Palestinian Arabs got 78% of the Mandate, originally earmarked for a Jewish national home, and under their Hashemite king now maintain a racist policy barring Jews from living there.

Shall we finish off the one Jewish sovereign by allowing millions of so-called “refugees” — defined as such because their grandparents happened to live in Palestine for two years (a singularly unique definition across the world and throughout history) — to take control of the country, vote into office a genocidal leadership which will implement strict sharia law, destroy ancient relics so as to wipe out a peoples’ history, and murder or expel the Jews?

Shall the Jews sign their own death warrant by granting the Palestinian Arabs living west of the Jordan River the high ground over Jerusalem and Tel Aviv so they can lob Iranian-made missiles at Israeli communities, homes, office buildings, and schools?

Those are the practical realities of what you deem an “ahistorical” and “unfair” situation. Now, when you wake up to those realities and have a truly workable solution to centuries of irredeemable and irrational Arab Muslim hatred for Jews and western civilization, give me a call.

Cynthia…….i couldn’t agree less with what you are saying…and in all fairness i think that your ‘bias’ on the history and future events will do a great disservice to the Israels – not unlike Reagans recognition of AFCongress and Mandella as ‘terrorists.

1) The world does understand that land obtained thru the event of war is ‘occupied’…..that you do not doesn’t make it less so. Under your definition,Cynthia, would you also decline to recognize Palestine as being ‘occupied’ by the Ottoman Empire – the many centuries prior to the end of WW1? What constitutes ownership of land? Modern real estate ‘deeds’ or that the people inhabited the region and were subjected to colonial annexation of land??? That is a fair question. Please don’t give me a knee jerk reaction to defend Israelis’ response. Are we a nation of laws or not? The partition of the land never gave Israel any legal right to W. Bank and Gaza. If there is a legal right to Israel its from the UN vote – doesn’t that have ‘standing’ for the Palestinian arabs as well?

2) Your arguement that the arabs control 21 or 2million countries or 99% of the land is not even germane. What you are doing is a Shonda….you are conflating one arab nation/group/people with another as if they are the same person. No differentiation is needed? The Palestinian arabs are a distinct group of arabs. Its unfair to not differentiate them from others. (Honestly, does Jordan, Syria and Lebanon recognize the Palestiniain arabs as equals? They won’t even give them voting rights or working permits….they just allow the refugee camps to be run by the UN)…..its PRACTICAL for Israeli opinion tho to GROUP the Palestinian arabs as one with the rest of the mideast – as you are doing – but unfair to them and a disservice to a long term solution to peace…..taken to its extreme Cynthia – would you say that its okay for America to annex some of the Haitian land as there is SO MUCH Latin American land? or that Japan be able to acquire the Senkaku Islands from China because, well, China is vastly larger then Japan?……we have to recognize boundaries and limits. What country has never created their boundaries? Israel. Since it has been bent on its eye toward the aquifers and extra land that it might annex…..that doesn’t make it right Cynthia.

3) What you say about the abrogate of rights of 1948 Jews is correct of course. That has no bearing on territorial matters. I can’t produce a land deed from 2000bc and request you get off your land that is rightfully yours – recognized, legally, by a 2012 purchase by yourself. That is inordinately unfair. Compensation claims may be required in a settlement matter for the loss of property – but, utiliizing the loss to Jews of property in 1948, as a claim to steal land, is obviously wrong. If it were true, then one country would only need to file or create a false aggression on another country as a PRETENSE to annex and steal their land. Right? If the USA stated that Nicaragua attacked us – even falsely – would that give them legal right under international or any moral law to remove the people from part of Honduras and make an American settlement?
Cynthia….there is a movie out now playing in NYC and TelAviv. entitled the GATEKEEPERS…..the documentary stars the 6 LIVING FORMER HEADS OF THE SHIN BET! Each one says the same thing. That the ‘settlement’ annexation has been and will be the greatest hindrance to Israels long and short term welfare. And probably ruin it. They are the HEADS of SHIN BET. And they have gone on RECORD to inform all of us that the course the Isreaelis are on now to steal land under the settlement project will be adversely correlated to the health of Israel….they do have ‘standing’……

http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2013/1/29/the_gatekeepers_in_new_film_ex

Bernie, I understand that you couldn’t agree less with what I am saying and that was to be predicted because like all cheap propagandists, you continue to make false and unsupported assertions while completely evading answering any of my questions.

Palestine was considered occupied by the Ottoman Empire for the same reason it could be considered occupied by invading Arabs in the 7th century: because the invaders (and colonizers in the case of the Arabs) were not indigenous to the territory. The Palestinian Arabs are indigenous to ARABia, Bernie, notwithstanding your fatuous attempts to claim otherwise based on how they are ostracized and mistreated by their brethren in countries like Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, who are doing so for their own cynical reasons: to exploit those Arabs whose ancestors may have spent two years in Palestine as a political weapon and festering sore against the Jews.

The Palestinian Arabs have themselves many times during the course of their war to evict the Jews from the region, frankly acknowledged that they are NOT a people or even nation separate and distinct from the Arabs of Egypt or Syria or Jordan (which itself is 70% Palestinian Arab by population even within the narrow definition of “people” you are pushing).

In a newspaper interview in 1977 for example, PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein stated:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against
the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no
difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

There are many similar quotes from other high-ranking Palestinian officials if you care to look.

Americans have no legal or historical claim to Haiti, as do the Jews to the land of Israel, Judea and Samaria so your argument there is simply a straw man.

Now, will you address my very relevant questions regarding the practical realities of the Jews being coerced to surrender another 15% of historic Palestine to the millions of Arabs who would like to declare sovereignty there so as to ultimately extirpate a Jewish national presence?

Shift the pressure onto the Palestinians? Tell me something…

When have the Palestinians EVER felt the pressure? When they were offered 95%+ of their demands and refused? Nope. When Israel evacuated Gaza? Nope. When Netanyahu froze settlements for 9 months — exactly what Abbas was demanding — but Abbas didn’t accept the offer to talk? Nope.

There is no way Israel can put “pressure” on the Palestinians. The only ones who can pressure the Palestinians are the West. And they don’t. They blame Israel instead.

Cynthia, i thought i did address your points. But let me try again.

1) You state, somehow, that the historic Arab conquest and the Ottoman Empire are not colonial efforts or ‘occupations’ in the PROPER sense of the term? I don’t want to misinterpret what you are saying – but is that it? We know from what little census records in 1910 that the arabs had been BY FAR the predominant majority in the region. We also know that after Basel/Hertzel/1900 conferences – the Jews from Northern Europe attempted to move, in hordes, to the region to create a state that might allow them protection from the historic and periodic pogroms/persecutions evidenced from the prior 1000yrs of the Crusades onwards. But, i think that by grouping the inhabitants of the area together – you are (unwittingly) allowing more then just a semantic error to disenfranchise these Palestinian arabs.

Cynthia, there is ample evidence to show that these Palestinian arabs since WW1 attempted to create their own state. And the British/French had promised them one. In 1919, they reneged on the promised (with the Russian ally) and disallowed a Pal state – instead opting for colonial rule. They divided up the region for themselves. And, we know, later were kicked out. But the important point i want to stress is that the Pal., Arabs petitioned for a STATE Cynthia. Even after 1948 they wanted a state. As well as post 1967. There is a fundamental disagreement there. I believe you are removing these specific people as a SPECIFIC people from history denying them identify and attempting to place them in Jordan or some general Arab state. The evidence i have read does not support that. Benny Morris has documented that 700k of the Palestinian arabs were removed from their homes with no restitution.

One other thing – you mention some Palestinian or other arabs that support your view. But one can conjure up quotes from BenGurion, etc that evidence the acquisitive and duplicitous nature of the Israeli project. I would just refer you to Jabotinksy who really was the forerunner and intellectual leader of the movement that still exists today. He, (and others like Dayan, Barak) mentioned that if they were the Palestinian arabs they would respond the same way to the aggression.

What you miss from the perception of looking at history only in terms of the victor, Israel – is that these people had always petitioned for nation status. And this is important. It was denied to them by the Brits/French/Allies —– and instead —– they watched as Northern European immigrants (Westerners!!!!) WERE given nation status in their own part of the world. What a calamity. Immigrants come to the land — part of Western culture — and co-opt land into a nation state —– a state that is Jewish and whereby, the indigenous are secondary citiziens. Who would not have took up arms if it happened to us Cynthia…..

Cynthia, i submit to you that your using Muhseins statement above as a definitive event in history or directive – only, and i mean this with no offense – points to your bias. Avi Shlaim,Flapan, Pappe, Benny Morris and others have all documented the OFFENSE of attempting to remove the Palestinians, as a distinct people, from history. It doesn’t work. Its only fair you consider other sources then just one quote. And these are Israeli scholars! I see you may not have looked at the Shin Bet leaders that i referred to in the other post. All 6 living Shin Bet leaders all believe that the Israeli settlement project is harming Israel. One even parallels it to Nazi Germany……These are the leaders of SHIN BET mind you…..they have, i repeat, real standing in Israels history.

so this is what kneejerk anti-Israel has gotten to. You can’t even mount a decent argument, you simply link crap and propaganda.

uh oh. be careful. your ignorance is showing.

Just to make it clear. I believe you are saying that the basis of the Jewish claim for the area is that of the UN vote to partition the land in 1948 – is that correct? Surely, you are not cashing in a land claim from 2500years ago? So, i assume that is correct.

I just want to say that is was the Europeans, that had mistreated the Jew historically. It was the Crusading English that thru Jews into the river. It was the Spanish that impaled them. It was the Poles/Cossacks that popromized them. It was the Germans (and French assist) that pushed them into ovens. Historically, back to the Moors that protected the Jews, the Jews of the middle east were not, by and large, subjected to persectuion by any scale that compared to the Europeans. But the subject is – what ENTITLED THE UN voters to partition middle east land and carve out a state of a bunch of immigrants from northern europe?

I will just say this once again to you Cynthia. Looking at the entire unconsionable act from the standpoint of the arabs – this was an injustice of monumental proportions. THEY were not allowed a nation state in Palestine – but Westerners (recall this is from the arab mindset) poplulated their area with a Westernized group of people who gave secondary status to the arabs that had lived there for years. I think you and others miss this historical point – its important. Which is why i don’t think this, perhaps insolvable problem, will ever be solved till 1948 is re-visited.

I do think that the arabs made mistakes. No question. In BERUIT TO JERUSALEM — Friedman goes to lengths saying how Arafat, rightfully, should have told his people that the Israeli project was unstoppable and settled for an injustice of a small state….and i think he was unquestioinably right…. but today is ANOTHER matter all together.

Listen to the SHIN BET leaders discuss todays predicament. They are correct. The settlement program is illegal. It is deterring any any any any ANY sort of agreement., And that agreement between the 2 parties is necessary before any wound heal – which will take generations. Even if you believe that there are no Palestinian arabs – in order for there to be peace – a settlement has to be made. Look at the land of the W. Bank. Its dotted with tons of settlements. There are now 500k Jews there.

To stand for any sane proposal for peace one will have to affirm the Saudi Initiative, Geneva Initiative. They negotiators really had it down at TABA, Egypt prior to the Intifada. But the expansionists and extremists got in the way. We all know that the W. Bank, Gaza with E. Jerusalem as the capitol of a new Palestinian state will eventually OCCUR ——- that is the only sane proposal now. To disagree is only to confer upon both these unfortunate peoples years and years and years of more conflict Cynthia……

I’m in agreement with you to a point. The Palestinians aren’t really held to account for their behavior, whether lobbing missiles at Israeli schools, hijacking airplanes, or rejecting peace offers. But that doesn’t obviate the need to force them to put up or shut up, once in a while. Inveterate critics of Israel eventually find their way back to finding it culpable for everything that happens to Arabs, but open displays of Palestinian recalcitrance shuts them up for a years.

I think you should ask a simple question, is settlement building in the West bank, by Israel, right? Regardless of other human rights issues in parts of the world or a double-standard, is this right? The answer is, unequivocally, no. No amount of discussing other matters will change this fact.