This week on Unorthodox: beauty pageant diplomacy, Gal Gadot’s Mossad mixup, and much, much more.

Our Jewish guest is feminist author, speaker, and psychologist Phyllis Chesler. She talks to us about losing step with the feminist movement she long shepherded over issues of Israel and Islam, how Zionism became such a wedge issue in the feminist movement, and—despite all that—why she’s optimistic about the future of feminism.

Our gentile of the week is Noreen Malone, New York Magazine features editor and a regular panelist on Slate’s DoubleX Gabfest. She tells us about growing up Catholic in heavily Jewish Shaker Heights, Ohio, and thinking she was part of a minority religion, revisits her powerful 2015 cover story on 35 of Bill Cosby’s accusers, and asks whether it’s ever OK for a non-Jew to call someone “jappy.”

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Unorthodox is a smart, fresh, fun weekly take on Jewish news and culture hosted by Mark Oppenheimer, Stephanie Butnick, and Liel Leibovitz. You can listen to individual episodes here or subscribe on iTunes.